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-   -   Poll: Outside of specific kaeshi waza (reversals) training, do you ever throw your partner when you (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3907)

AikiWeb System 05-25-2003 01:01 AM

AikiWeb Poll for the week of May 25, 2003:

Outside of specific kaeshi waza (reversals) training, do you ever throw your partner when you are uke?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.

Edward 05-25-2003 03:13 AM

Yes, sometimes I do, especially if he's irritating me with usage of excessive force, or sometimes to show a weakness in his technique.

PeterR 05-25-2003 05:05 AM

Quote:

Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
Yes, sometimes I do, especially if he's irritating me with usage of excessive force, or sometimes to show a weakness in his technique.

Yes but in my case its usually as a teaching tool (as Edward - to show weakness) and therefore very selective to those I am in a position to be teaching. I don't see myself doing that to my seniors.

Nacho_mx 05-25-2003 09:34 AM

Yes, but not very often and only when my nage is showing and repeating an obvious flaw in his/her technique that allows an opening for the kaeshi waza.

fjcsuper 05-25-2003 09:45 AM

I think that by throwing my nage will only result in him/her getting frustrated... especially when he/she can't complete the technique.

I never throw my nage. In a way, I find it very rude. I might tell him whats wrong, or i can just suggest calling over my sensei to teach us. :ai: :ki:

Evza 05-25-2003 03:28 PM

I don't think throwing my nage is frustrating for him/her in case that I afterwards explain to him/her what's wrong or suggest to call the sensei to do so.

However, I remember being very frustrated by some more experienced uke who threw me without any explanation, and I never learned anything that way, as I had no idea what my mistake was.

L. Camejo 05-25-2003 03:28 PM

Quote:

Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Yes but in my case its usually as a teaching tool (as Edward - to show weakness) and therefore very selective to those I am in a position to be teaching. I don't see myself doing that to my seniors.

Same here.

I often test the stability and integrity of my senior students' technique this way, especially if they are of the belief that they have "mastered" the technique.

I've actually become notorious for showing folks how easily a Judoka (or someone skilled in balance manipulation) may introduce them to "Terra Firma" if their posture was slightly lacking or if they applied too much upper body power into a throw :D. Great humbler though.

Of course when dealing with my Instructor, the tables are nicely turned:p

Like Edward said as well, excessive force is a guaranteed way to find out what kaeshiwaza feels like ;)

Just my 2 cents.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Veers 05-25-2003 05:54 PM

A few times I have with my brother and sister.

In sitting kokyoho, for example, my sister one day wasn't really trying, so when she flipped me over, I threw her over me. She hasn't done that again.

A few times when my brother was doing some foot work wrong I pointed it out to him, but he kept doing it. So, next time, I spun away leaving him off balance. He got it the next time.

I wouldn't do it with someone I didn't know very well, though, especially a new student.

rkowalchuk 05-25-2003 06:24 PM

I have been both on the giver and reciever of unsolicated kaeshi waza. I can remember one occasion when I was very new to Aikido, it became a Valuable lesson to the correct form of irimi-nage. I stepped too soon leaving my hand a little to far back. Since I was practicing with a judoka, let's just say I learnt my lesson with a nice hard Judo style koshi-nage.

I do see a need to perform this kind of practice but it should only be on occasion. If you are focusing too much on kaeshi-waza then the lessons the sensei is teaching might be missed, not to mention that kaeshi-waza is not about Nage making a mistake. It is about Uke's skill to use a technique and become Nage. In that case the practice is much more different. Whenever someone is performing the role of Uke they should always be practicing this principle, they don't have to completely reverse the technique, but know that they have generated a situation where they could reverse.

- Rob

Paul Sanderson-Cimino 05-25-2003 06:36 PM

I've found that just pausing and saying something like "You probably don't want to be leaning like that, or else I could toss you" and then perhaps lightly indicating the start of a reversal, without actually going all out to exploit the 'error', is effective.

I've never seen an uke in my dojo throw a shite/nage/whatever term you care to use. It seems potentially quite dangerous to suddenly try to flatten the other person. What if they tense up, and your throw ends up injuring them? Better just to show them the error, and if they're curious, sure, you can actually do it. But I'd say not without asking first, both as a matter of courtesy (it could easily be construed as arrogance/"I'm better than you") and of safety.

Mallory Wikoff 05-25-2003 06:48 PM

In my dojo i've never seen an uke throw a nage, so, since i am a student, i haven't been bold enough to do it. now that i know that some dojo's do it... i might try it but not w/o my instructors permission and only if the technique is done realy bad according to what i know the nage can do.

sanosuke 05-25-2003 08:18 PM

I throw my nage only when they lose focus

Paul Klembeck 05-25-2003 10:04 PM

I answered no, as it can lead in general to competition and bad feelings, which are no good for anyone.

That said, I am senior to most everyone in my dojo, so I occaisionally demonstrate weaknesses by starting kaeshi waza, but never take them to a full throw. I also explain what I am doing, BEFORE the demonstration. That way it is taken as helpful advice.

Paul

PeterR 05-25-2003 10:14 PM

Quote:

Paul Klembeck wrote:
I answered no, as it can lead in general to competition and bad feelings, which are no good for anyone.

It can also lead to good Aikido. In situations where we allow free reversals the distinction between tori and uke is lost so I was forced to answer no as the question specifically referred to uke's actions outside of specific kaeshiwaza training.

Paul Klembeck 05-26-2003 02:40 AM

Peter,

I understand your comment, but our's is a relatively young dojo and it is very rare for me to train with a peer, which would make your comment fully and happily applicable.

Kind of unique, I know, 7th dan senior instructor, mere nidan seldom getting to practice with peers, but, the quality of teaching makes up the difference.

Paul

Charles Hill 05-26-2003 08:48 AM

Years ago, I visited Wendy Palmer Sensei's dojo, just north of San Francisco. I paired up with a woman who turned out to be at about the same level as me. For some reason which I still don't understand, we connected at a deep level really fast.

Our training became rather intense with the both of us trying to reverse the other as much as possible. A number of times we ended on the ground grappling. Wendy came over apparently concerned, but seeing us laughing, walked away.

My point is that this training was very helpful to me, but was only possible due to the positive mood we had and the fact that we were about the same level. The rules of the dojo, made by O'Sensei, state that one must train with a feeling of joy. It was this feeling that allowed us to train at a high level and be able to finish that practice feeling better than when it started.

I believe the first step in training is to establish a good relationship with my partner. Without that, it is immpossible to advance, even on a technical level.

Charles

ajbarron 05-26-2003 09:43 AM

In the five years I've been practicing Aikido I only do reversals only on those students who I consider to be friends, who would help me out by showing me a weakness in my technique by doing the same; and then we usually get a good laugh out of it.

If another student is "too hard" or "too serious" and might see it as a challenge, therefore a competition I would refrain from the temptation. If one of those students does a reversal on me I thank them and move on but would not try it on them.

ikkitosennomusha 05-26-2003 10:18 PM

Hello all!

I have only used Kaeshi-waza when:

1. Nage was using excessive force and slapping the mat or thigh yielded no relief, and

2. When Nage continues to disrupt specific tecnique instructions with remarks like "How are you going to get out of this"

Number one occurs with a greater frequency and is something that no one should have to do. Number two Does not happen often because I simply explain not to deviate from instruction and that such questions should be held for after class.

Although I am capable of Kaeshi-waza, it was something that I had to figure out because in my years of training, I never saw it emphasized.:ai: :ki: :do:

ikkitosennomusha 05-26-2003 10:23 PM

In addition, I have actually been called out for horse-play when actually I was having to protect myself from an out of control kohei.

I am going to reccommend that if anyone is ever put in a compromising position when their joints are at stake, GET OUT OF IT! I do not care what sensei think or anyone else for that matter. If your personal health is at risk, your duty lies with protecting yourself, not with a sensei who cannot understand your unwillingness to submit to bodily harm. That is stupid!:grr:

Kevin Masters 05-30-2003 10:15 AM

I don't do reversals. I'm quite sure that my level of training isn't mature enough to even consider something like that. Sometimes it's a bit frustrating to me when my uke takes my balance because of my crappy technique. OTOH it's just as well since my poor waza must be equally frustrating for my partner.

Largo 06-25-2003 01:40 AM

I have, but only a few times (usually during shihonage). I only did it once, and after pointing out a large opening. I've had it done to me a number of times (on various techinques) and it has always been done in such a way that it was a good learning experience.


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