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-   -   Another knee thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3827)

TomanGaidin 05-08-2003 10:30 AM

Another knee thread
 
Yes, another one of those threads related to knee injuries in aikido.

Just yesterday I ran into my first such problem - not from a throw, or from shikko, but just from kneeling down. Not particularly hard or fast kneeling, just... well, kneeling down normally. I felt a sort of twinge and sting in my right knee after, and when I next stood up tried to see if something had gone through the legs of my gi (do the pants have a separate name for themselves?). Nothing had, and the sensation passed save for a few occasional fleeting moments. Suwari waza at the end of class passed without a hitch, also.

When I got back from aikido, it was a different story. Each time I touched the front of my knee resulted in a sharp, electric-shock like twinge/pain/sting. It's hard to describe, really, but that's the best I can manage. Today, it's gotten a bit worse, the knee itself feeling inflamed sometimes, and walking normally without those stings being a difficulty. Going by the outward appearance of the knee, though, nothing's wrong with it - no swelling, no cuts, nothing.

It was suggested it could be a pinched nerve - I'm also thinking this, considering when once I skimmed my hand over the front of the knee it seemed to send the sting/shock/twinge/whatever down the entire lower leg.

So, anyone know if it is a nerve problem? If so, will it recover by itself? I have a grading coming up on the 25th... just hoping I'll be well by then.

Dave Miller 05-08-2003 10:38 AM

I would suggest that if it doesn't get better in a couple of days that you go see your doctor. Knees aren't something to take chances with.

kiddokit 05-08-2003 10:44 AM

My advice -- don't wait a second longer, go seek a doctor's advice this instant!

I have a bad knee. Can't run or hike long distances. But cycling and doing aikido don't hurt as much as the former two activities. Still hurts, especially after a vigorous aikido session, but bearable and will disappear after an hour or two.

The point is you wouldn't want to reach my situation to only start getting a doctor's opinion. What you have felt is perhaps minor, nonetheless though let's not take chances, shall we?

Hope you do recover by the 25th. and good luck!

sean mcdonnell 05-08-2003 11:16 AM

I'm the one who posted the last thread about knees and all I got out of it was about 20, "Go see a doctor" 's. Not to say that that's bad advice but I think when people post these threads, they know the best thing is to see a doctor. If you read my thread you will se that mine seemed to hurt when sitting in seiza and the pain does not seem similar to yours. Thankfully I gave it some time and the pain just went away. It still feels pretty straining for me to sit in seiza but I deal with it and hope that soon it won't be so bad. I just don't understand why it seems like seiza is a problem for nobody but me. PLEASE tell me if this is not the case.

Thanks,

Sean

TomanGaidin 05-08-2003 11:22 AM

Thanks for the responses.

As to getting 20 'go see a doctor's... part of what I was looking for was to see if pinched nerves heal on their own, or whatnot, without treatment. But depending on the severity of the problem tomorrow morning... well, we'll see.

I don't really think anyone finds seiza all that comfortable ;). I certainly don't, but my issue is with the hamstrings, not from the knees there.

Sven Groot 05-11-2003 08:19 AM

Quote:

Sean McDonnell (sean mcdonnell) wrote:
I just don't understand why it seems like seiza is a problem for nobody but me. PLEASE tell me if this is not the case.

It's not the case. Sitting in seiza is the number 2 most difficult part of Aikido training for me (number 1 being Shikko...)

I simply cannot bend my knees far enough to get my bottom touching my feet. When I first started Aikido, I couldn't do it at all. Now I can usually do it after the warmup, but long periods still are difficult. If we have a class with lots of suwari waza it's a real PITA (or actually, PITK). And even if I do manage to get through it I often can't get up anymore without serious effort... :(

sean mcdonnell 05-11-2003 04:45 PM

Yeah, I know what you mean. It feels like someone superglued my knees in that postion. I just hope I am not damaging my knees.

joseph totty 05-11-2003 06:09 PM

I just messed up my knee yesterday. Went into a kneeling position at the end of a movement and "pop" and down I went. It felt fine after about twenty minutes with ice on it(enough to get through class anyway), but it is rather stiff and sore today.

ian 05-12-2003 08:20 AM

Yeh - I never bend my knees greater than 90 deg without having warmed them up first (slowly bending them and standing up at increasing angles - possibly with some support from your hands being on the ground).

For flexibility, sit in seiza, then lean backwards (knees close together) and touch the back of your head on the mat. Relax and try and lower your shoulders down if you can - may take a while at first!

akiy 05-12-2003 09:34 AM

Quote:

Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
For flexibility, sit in seiza, then lean backwards (knees close together) and touch the back of your head on the mat. Relax and try and lower your shoulders down if you can - may take a while at first!

Although I can easily do this stretch without any problems, I no longer do it due to warnings from people who know better than me (nurses, body workers, physical therapists) who have said that the above stretch is bad for the knees.

I guess it's kind of like trying to close a book fully that has a pencil wedged in it (if you think about the knee being the spine/binding of the book, the pencil as your heel, and the end of the cover as your shoulder)...

-- Jun

DanielR 05-12-2003 10:02 AM

Quote:

Jun wrote:
Although I can easily do this stretch without any problems, I no longer do it due to warnings from people who know better than me (nurses, body workers, physical therapists) who have said that the above stretch is bad for the knees.

I also heard an opinion that this stretch puts a considerable strain on the (lower?) back if one needs to arch the back to touch the mat with the head and the shoulders. When doing this stretch, I lower my back as far as it can go without arching.

Kevin Wilbanks 05-12-2003 11:28 AM

If you've ever read any of my fitness diatribes, you know I agree about the stretch. Contorting yourself into that position isn't going to help you get the ROM to sit in seiza. In general, putting oneself in odd pretzel positions will not somehow magically translate into improvements in being comfortable in ordinary positions. Sitting in seiza itself is going to do the majority of the work for you, and using a structured sitting regimen is the way to go.

That stretch is of a particularly bad variety in which your bodyweight ends up passively cranking on the tissues in a position in which you cannot control the action with muscular strength. This stretch is a potential hazard for both the knees and hyperextension of the lumbar spine, and it is too dissimilar to the desired position/movement to provide the intended benefit. Passive stretching is the most overrated activity/prophylactic in the fitness world. Given proper training methods, including dynamic movement drills and active ROM/resistance exercises, static stretching is almost completely unnecessary even for serious athletes. If you insist on doing it, at least pick simple, non-contortive stretches in which you have complete muscular control.

Janet Rosen 05-12-2003 03:32 PM

Quote:

Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
Yeh -

For flexibility, sit in seiza, then lean backwards (knees close together) and touch the back of your head on the mat. Relax and try and lower your shoulders down if you can - may take a while at first!

As both a former rehab nurse and an aikidoka who has a blown acl, I must take issue with this commonly used stretch. In the opinions of every orthopedically trained with whom I've consulted, the consensus is this places too great a pressure on the knee joint (specifically the meniscus), and that since there are a variety of psoas and quadriceps stretches that DON'T compromise the knee, there is no reason to continue doing these.

Sven Groot 05-13-2003 07:25 AM

I have enought trouble just sitting straight, let alone lean backward...

At least after reading this I know I shouldn't even try!


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