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tsuba
~~Only about 10% of the folks at my dojo use a tsuba. How 'bout other dojos? I love mine; saved me many a whining night. :D
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Nope. Never seen anyone else use one on an Iwama bokken, either.
In all the rather vigorous kumitachi I've done, I've only gotten whacked two or three times. Best Regards, |
A ratio of 2 out of 10 around here , Paula.
In my case , its just seems to get in the way of my hold..... I've had more trouble out of students "being careful" with the bokken (ie holding the cut or trying not to hit me ) than the lack of tsuba on mine. Plus Ki! |
Nope. Never
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Well,I really dont kwont because in aikiken we dont use tsuba,but i think that it is because that we in aikiken trusted own protection to the body's movements not to hand's movement(how in others school of kenjutsu)for we can out of attack's line,it's thanks to hanmi and hitoemi position.
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What's a tsuba ?
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Kelly, the tsuba is the ring found on a normal Japanese sword which separates the hand grip from the blade. Most aiki-ken curved bokken do not have tsuba, but other bokken, e.g., the straight bokken used in kashima-shin(to) ryu do have tsuba to protect the user. In my aikido career to date, I have never practised aiki-ken with a tsuba. Best regards, |
Always, in my old dojo, 100% with tsuba; also with hockey gloves too (allowing for full contact). Needless to say, I don't practice weapons anymore.
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I have always practiced with the tsuba intact on my bokken.I have small hands, so unlike many of my classmates, I don't have issues with the tsuba interfering with my grip. On a side note, a couple weeks ago Sensei had me practice with his bokken ( a tsubaless white oak that weighed a TON), needless to say it was quite awkward... My grip kept sliding and shifting all night.
K |
I have never seen one used.
In Judo (my ex art)...we sometimes had new people come who wore shin guards, or perhaps they wore them after a session or two ;) ...it didn't matter, no-one was 'hitting' shins to hurt them and frankly they just got in the way (for the wearer) and they soon stopped using them when they saw it was making no difference at all, except focusing their mind in the wrong place. What I never saw in more than a decade of judo, was a groin guard. Of course there were occasional accidental groin injuries, but the groin is not a 'legal target' so injuries (or just plain shock) were so rare that it is never worth catering for. To me the tsuba is like the groin guard, no-one is going to try and chop your fingers but we all accept it may happen on a rare occasion. However if I thought someone was going to target my fingers I would be wearing Rachel's hockey gloves. And the attacker better be wearing a groin guard. |
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For these reasons, I have a hide tsuba on one of my bokuto. I have a few others (including a couple of light, Yagyu style) that do not have tsuba, though. Depending the kind of exercises or the kind of bokuto my partner has, I'll switch to another... -- Jun |
I think that we must kwon that type of ken's school that we practiced for choose own bokken.
If we are study OSensei aikiken,it based its protections in the body movements for out of attack's line,we must have present that OSensei didn't use stuba in his bokken,the bokken more similar to one OSensei is the Iwama's bokken,and it isn't tsuba. Own fingers didn't pass danger if we adapted our level at our speed,vigor and maai during the exercices. |
Tsuba
When I started with Saotome Sensei nobody used tsuba, I think primarily because there weren't bokken available with them here (I don't count the little plasticthings). Saotome Sensei was able to get Mr. Kiyota of the Kiyota Company to produce some to his speicifications with tsuba and the started to catch on. I haven't used a bokken without one since I did some classical sword with Ellis Amdur Sensei years ago. The tsuba allows you to do some things with the sword that you can't do without one. Almost everyone at my dojo uses one at this point. This is also helped by the fact that two of my senior students are also students of Kenjutsu under Phil Relnick Sensei so they also prefer the tsuba.
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We don't use a tsuba generally, though one person prefers to and I don't have a problem with that. My worry is, that someone may get used to using the tsuba to trap or block the other's weapon. Whereas this would be realistically possible, I see much of the purpose of kenjutsu within aikido to develop a feel for the others sword and a responsiveness through the blade. If the tsuba is hit, it suggests blending has not occurred.
Ian |
P.S. Jun - yes, for certain more risky exercises I've got my fingers struck, but it certainly focused my attention!
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Estimate George S. Ledyard,when you started to uses stuba,you said that it's when you studied classical sword,but it isn't Ueshiba's sword system create for the aikido,althoug it's the origin of aikiken.
Into of aikiken there aren't any technique that uses tsuba for make protection or block,it's of other kenjutsu schools. |
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Aikiken?
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Anyway, in Saotome Sensei's sword there is a lot of powerful deflection work and I can tell you that I have been glad of the tsuba many times. |
Re: Aikiken?
Estimate George S. Ledyard,i'm not said student dosen't used stuba are not study aikiken(it's one personal election,and said it is more than stupid),i'm only said study of sword's classic schools it isn't study of aikiken,it's study of aikiken origin.
In aikiken we learn to leave whit every own body out of attack line thank to awase whit the partener,aikido's displacements and hitohammi and hitoemi position because i think stuba is not necesary. As we can think that OSensei's wonderfull mind not sintetaize one system of weapons for the aikido? For me aikiken today is the system of tech codified and classified for Saito Sensei before of one life dedicate to preservation of Ueshibas tech. We don't forget that Saito Sensei is the only person that Ueshiba tech (more than anybody)and gave permission in live for tech weapons in the Hombu Dojo. |
Re: Re: Aikiken?
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I certainly never maintained that a tsuba was "necessary". I would simply ask that you examine the idea that the tsuba represents some sort of ideological issue here. Who cares if someone uses a tsuba or not? The idea that this piece of hardware indicates that you are doing some sort of style of aikiken is erroneous. It's a thing you stick on your sword to protect your fingers for pitty sake. As to whether it indicates some lack of technical ability, as someone intimated, I am quite satisfied that I can place my tip exectly where I want it yet I have had the experience of training with those that can't quite do this yet. The last time one of them destroyed my oak tsuba I was quite glad I had one. Perhaps it would have been better to have had my fingers smashed so I could appear to be ideologically pure. |
Re: Re: Re: Aikiken?
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I think I know the move you are talking about George where they cut directly towards you and you cut directly towards them - it is very intimidating, but the cutting action itself throws their weapon to the side in our practise (without having to actually move your sword sideways or utilise a tsuba). Maybe this is unrealistic, since the wooden sword is much thicker than the steel sword. For me I only practice weapon work for what it provides for unarmed practise (and for me it provides alot). I don't know how the tsuba relates to unarmed practice. This defence described above related to blending e.g. ikkyo/irimi-nage relationship, and the ability to enter even when their force is strong (without conflicting). Ian P.S. I'd agree about aikiken deriving from Saito (and the reason he only taught Saito the full aikiken, as I understand it, is because students became obsessed with weapon aspects!). However I also think more recently that iaido has infiltrated aikido, since many aikido practitioners do iaido and incorporate this into aikido weapon work. For me I'm not sure this is useful - aikiken is not just a weapon work 'add-on' for aikido. |
I didn't catch the comment where it was equated that the use of tsuba meant you were technically deficient. I can assure you that neither Chiba Sensei nor Shibata Sensei are technically deficient, and both of them use a tsuba. I think it depends on how the attacks are carried forth on whether you want one or not.
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Technology
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Hello Mr. Ledyard,
I agree, technology is definately improving. Might I ask when you trained with them (out of curiosity only)? I belonged to the WR from 1993-2001. Swear I always remembered the tsuba, but then could be wrong (certainly wouldn't be the first time). Also agree that it lends a level of safety, but also think it lends to a level of allowing nage to feel more comfortable going for a full-out attack (for someone like me who really doesn't want to hit anyone). What do you think about that? best, Rachel |
Late eighties?
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Anyway, my exposure to Chiba Sensei was first in Seattle at Bookman Sensei's where I trained regularly (I was also a member of Mary Heiny Sensei's dojo). Then, after I became Chief instructor of Mary's dojo when she moved to Canada I went to Chiba sensei's Instructor seminar in Berkley. This was all in the mid to late eighties before I opened my current school (1989). I think my first exposure to Shibata Sensei was on a visit I made to Honbu Dojo. He decided I was a wimp because I fell too soon out of his kotegaeshi and didn't wait for him to crank me. He seemed awfully disappointed... Anyway, I am pretty sure I was at another Chiba sensei event after he came to the US and I saw him again. Memory is a bit hazy. And I agree that anything that makes it safer for one of the partners to parctice will allow that other partner to attack with less energy held back. We use often fukuro shinai for this reason... your partner won't hesitate to blast you over the head with one of those but will usually hold back, if only a little, when bokken are used. |
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