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-   -   why koshinage? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368)

joan 11-04-2000 09:39 AM

Any suggestions for teaching koshinage? I'm looking for how to set up situations where a koshi throw would make sense, and how to facilitate learning the ukemi, especially for beginners.
Joan

andrew 11-04-2000 11:35 AM

Quote:

joan wrote:
Any suggestions for teaching koshinage? I'm looking for how to set up situations where a koshi throw would make sense, and how to facilitate learning the ukemi, especially for beginners.
Joan

One of my teachers uses a judo exercise to teach Koshinage, because it's very easy to do. Uke stands directly behind, Tore grabs right hand of Uke with left, puts right arm around back, and lifts onto hip and throws. It's not Aikido, but our class is mainly beginners and it's good for learning how to get your hip in there to thrown uke over.
After a couple of rolls, I think ukemi just happens in a lot of these very basic siuations.
Hope thats a help
andrew

Paul 11-06-2000 07:46 AM

I like to start the class or end the previous class with a koshi nage exercise; you place uke on your hips and uke relaxes allowing his limbs to soften along with his spine. You then place him back on his feet. I have always found that people are afraid of koshi nage, it does seem a very long way to the floor! I have found this to be helpful in overcoming uke fear.
As for the execution of Koshi nage, I feel that getting uke on to their toes is a good situation in which koshi nage seems to make sense to beginners.
Sankyo ura, at the point where it seems you are fly fishing ( uke is whirling around you on his toes) you step in and place him on your hips. Ryote Katate dori koshi nage is a good one, the arm going to the sky finds the yonkyo nerve uke goes to his toes place him on your hips.

The point I try to get across to my students when teaching koshi nage is to sink the body as the arms go to the sky and to raise the body when cutting.

And that it isn't a throw as such but you offer uke support on your hips and when he is supported you simply take it away.


Regards Paul Finn
Edinburgh

Bussho 11-06-2000 08:51 AM

Hi

As I can see it, there are two technics that "use" tori's body, while the rest use uke's body against himself. Thoose two are koshinage and iriminage. Tori uses his own body to make uke 'rotate'. Compare this to kotegaeshi which makes uke rotate because his own arm rotates.
Then irimi nage becomes complimentary(sp?) to koshinage.

I could be be wrong, I'm no expert....

I believe that koshinage can bedone on any 'attack', but maybe the most simple to start with would be a kote attack from behind on both wrists.

Regards
Terje

Guest5678 11-06-2000 12:33 PM

Quote:

joan wrote:
Any suggestions for teaching koshinage? I'm looking for how to set up situations where a koshi throw would make sense, and how to facilitate learning the ukemi, especially for beginners.
Joan

Joan,

My suggestion would be to visit http://www.bujindesign.com and order Ikeda sensei's koshinage tape. It has some great training tips and really great techniques that cover the full range ie. beginners - advanced. I purchased this tape some time ago and still continue to reference it throughout my training. Good luck !

Train hard, Play hard, Live easy.

Dan P. -Mongo



Dan Hover 11-06-2000 12:56 PM

Koshinage's really break down into two types sankyo types and Shihonage types. the easiest way to teach both of these is work on the fundamental precursor techniques(sankyo,shihonage)after that I start them on Koshinages from Suwari waza, believe it or not. the fear factor and the set up for the throw aren't as scary when they are only a foot of the ground especially for shihonage type koshi's. then after that add the height. I try to avoid just "loading" uke onto Nage's back and stopping the throw there, as this stops the flow and can hurt nage's back. And it doesn't really teach anyone anything, uke doesn't learn ukemi, nage doesn't really learn how to throw.

ian 11-09-2000 09:29 AM

To me Koshinage makes more sense when you see it from a shomen uchi with boken. It is uke's desire to keep hold of the weapon that makes the throw very effective.

I think it is a hard technique for beginners to grasp (and to breakfall from). To me, it needs a lot of commitment from uke in the attack. A faster attack (like a charge) may help to produce a more realistic throw.

akiy 11-09-2000 10:25 AM

Quote:

Dan Hover wrote:
Koshinage's really break down into two types sankyo types and Shihonage types.
That's pretty interesting, actually. I've heard of aikido koshinage broken down into basically two categories as "head-through" or "hip-through" depending on what part of nage's body crosses uke's center line first.

-- Jun

Dan Hover 11-09-2000 10:39 AM

Quote:

akiy wrote:
Quote:

Dan Hover wrote:
Koshinage's really break down into two types sankyo types and Shihonage types.
That's pretty interesting, actually. I've heard of aikido koshinage broken down into basically two categories as "head-through" or "hip-through" depending on what part of nage's body crosses uke's center line first.

-- Jun

Both are possible. The grips break down into Sankyo Vs. Shihonage, the entry breaks down into head through or hip through. Although I feel head-through is easier to perform and easier to teach.

Mark Valenti 11-19-2000 10:00 AM

Donovan Waite has released some instructional videotapes about ukemi, which I found interesting. I can't remember the exact name now, though. I think the one I saw was the second one.

I started to get comfortable with high breakfalls, being thrown by the more advanced members of the group. They were able to help guide me into the proper position and offer me the strong support I needed to take a proper fall comfortably. Long ago, when I was doing Judo, for purposes of learning ukemi, it was policy that beginners did not throw beginners, as that was where there was a risk of injury. Beginners threw advanced students and advanced students threw beginners. Later, studying Judo techniques in an eclectic style, where even the more advanced students were beginners in Judo, ukemi became very hard to learn, as bad throws and bad falls hurt, causing fear, which caused worse falls, which caused more pain, which caused more fear...

Mark Valenti


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