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-   -   Big pants, what are they? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3650)

njnoexit 03-28-2003 06:15 PM

Big pants, what are they?
 
What were the name of them big pants again? they are of dark pigment. and what is the point of them etc....

Greg Jennings 03-28-2003 06:19 PM

They are called hakama. Specifically juba hakama.

They were for horse riding. I.e., chaps. Later they just became traditional. Much like many Texans now wear boots even though they never ride (they are terrible for walking).

Best Regards,

njnoexit 03-28-2003 06:26 PM

hmmm, tradition is great and all, but is it not a hassle?

Kevin Wilbanks 03-28-2003 08:11 PM

Hassle? It certainly is. So is going to a dojo and falling down and getting up a couple hundred times in a row multiple times per week in general. If you want to avoid hassles, may I suggest a lazy boy chair and a remote controlled TV?

njnoexit 03-28-2003 10:04 PM

But what importance dose it sugest my friend?

Kelly Allen 03-29-2003 12:01 AM

I have not worn a hakama yet due to my rank. But I am told by my Sensei that wearing a hakama tends to help find your center. I'm looking forward to seeing if this is true. I think it will take a few yeears yet though since we are not allowed to wear hakama till we are third kyu in our dojo.

Max Ostap 03-29-2003 12:04 AM

Quote:

Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Hassle? It certainly is. So is going to a dojo and falling down and getting up a couple hundred times in a row multiple times per week in general. If you want to avoid hassles, may I suggest a lazy boy chair and a remote controlled TV?

May i suggest answering the question instead of (poorly) trying to make a wisecrack. Or maybe just staying quite if you can't.

JJF 03-29-2003 02:00 AM

Whoa Max! How's that for a first post ? On this forum it's quite ok to make a few wise remarks now and then, but that kind of trolling / putting down is not looked upon kindly. Now go practice instead of getting your stomack acid building up by reading these forums.

And now to answer the question: I have been wearing a hakama for about a year in aikido, and for two years in kendo/iaido training. Part of it is tradition - I'll admit that, yet in my opinion it also serves a purpose. The hakama will force you to move in a different way and if tied properly it will also give you a feeling of a somewhat 'heavier' center. It also has the advantage that the little plate in the back is a constant reminder to straighten your back - a little bit like if your have ever tried to wear a formal suit with those long sleaves on the back - it forces you to have a better and more upright posture.

Some people also claim that the proces of folding the hakama after practice is a good teacher of disciplin and patience. I think they have a point. Taking care of your equipment is always a good way to train your mind.

Finally it forces you to get to the dojo a little earlier, since it takes a while putting it on :)

For more information go check out http://www.aikidofaq.com/misc/hakama.html

Hope this helps

erikmenzel 03-29-2003 02:33 AM

As an addition to Jørgens excelent post:

a hakama does make you move differently, if only to avoid getting your foot caught in it.

The tradition part is also very important, it shows that the student is seriuos enough to be part of the tradition and is serious enough to respect proper ettiquette and behaviour.

Finally, maybe also important. It looks elegant.

bob_stra 03-29-2003 04:33 AM

Re: Big pants, what are they?
 
Quote:

(njnoexit) wrote:
What were the name of them big pants again? they are of dark pigment. and what is the point of them etc....

Call 'em whatever you want. I'm gonna call mine Jeff.

Me: So, let's go to training?

Jeff The indestructible Hakama: No, I'm tired.

Me: You da man Jeff !!

mike lee 03-29-2003 05:07 AM

fact or fiction
 
Quote:

They were for horse riding. I.e., chaps.
Is it true? I never heard that, although it sounds reasonable.

njnoexit 03-29-2003 06:23 AM

thank you all for my defence. But I am sure kevin did not intendto hurt anyone.

Also Very intresting about the hakama. Thankyou very much for all who contributed. But I yet have another question.If the hakama keeps our balance, and keeps you center, and kees our back strait, etc.. then would it not be best for all students to wear them regaurdless of rank? I know of another dojo somewhere near mine where all the students wear them. Is that dojo soposed to be looked down on for not following tradition? or should they be respected in an attempt to improve the art(or the way you begin to learn the art)?

thank you all for yout time and patience.

Kelly Allen 03-29-2003 06:32 AM

IMHO the dojo that has everyone wearing a hakama are more traditional than the ones who require you to have rank. O Sensei himself required everyone to wear a hakama so that they weren't coming onto the mats in just their underwear (grappleing gis are in fact underwear). It was only later that the hakamas were used as a status symbol.

Peter Goldsbury 03-29-2003 07:00 AM

Re: fact or fiction
 
Quote:

Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Is it true? I never heard that, although it sounds reasonable.

The question here is whether the hakama, as worn in the 4th-6th centuries, had any relation with horse-riding. There is a body of theory that Mongolian horse-riding nomads introduced some martial arts to the Japanese, but this is far from clear.

The hakama was tied just below the knee, a custom which disappeared in the Yamato & Nara periods. There was obviously contact with Han China, the three kingdoms of Korea, and Mongolian nomads.

There are pictures of the Founder wearing a kosode and it would have been normal practice in the Meiji / Taisho eras and the hakama would have been worn over this.

Best regards,

Jeff Tibbetts 03-29-2003 11:46 AM

I only have one thing to add that hasn't already been said. Hakamas are expensive! At my Dojo sensei tells anyone that he thinks is commited enough that they can get one. He doesn't tell beginners, simply because he's seen so many leave over the years and he doesn't want them to waster their money. The other students who wear them, and he, say that they help you "feel" a little more graceful or flowing. Other than that, it's simply a part of the uniform and I can't think of any reason why someone wouldn't want to wear one. I would get one today if I had the money...

njnoexit 03-29-2003 11:49 AM

hmm thats intresting. But I will wait till I am black belt. No need tget in a hurry just to wear a hakama. It dose sound cool though. By the way what is the cost of one? it coud not be thatmuch could it?

Don_Modesto 03-29-2003 12:03 PM

Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
They are called hakama. Specifically juba hakama.

They were for horse riding. I.e., chaps.

Thanks for the post.

1) Haven't heard the term "juba" before. What does it mean?

2) "Chaps" would seem to answer my question, except that equestrian is not counted among my accomplishments, therefore: What is the function of HAKAMA/chaps for riding?

I recently read that the function of a cape was to entangle incoming arrows...
[quote="Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury)"]The question here is whether the hakama, as worn in the 4th-6th centuries, had any relation with horse-riding.

Failing which, what explanations for them have you encountered, Peter?

Thanks.

rachmass 03-29-2003 12:19 PM

I rode and showed horses (hunt seat) for 25 years, and only wore chaps occassionally in training. The chaps I wore (and everyone else I knew who wore them) were leather or suede and really stuck your legs to the saddle. I find it rather difficult to believe that a soft material such as linen, cotton, or the like would ever be used in this context, as it would slide dreadfully against any leather.

just my $.02 as both a retired equestrian and an active aikidoka.

aikido_fudoshin 03-29-2003 12:28 PM

It was explained by Gozo Shioda that the reason for using a hakama was so another martial artist could not pick up on the way you move. It was of utmost importance to keep this a secret because it could leave you vulnerable in a fight.

Osu!

Kent Enfield 03-29-2003 01:23 PM

Re: Big pants, what are they?
 
Quote:

Adrian Abascal (njnoexit) wrote:
And what is the point of them etc....

They're just pants. They're just part of the traditional Japanese costume. Almost all Japanese arts use them as part of the uniform: kendo, iaido, kyudo, atarashii naginata, jodo, and almost every older, traditional martial art. Pretty much the only Japanese budo that don't wear them are sumo, and some of the modern arts. Go to the ryu guide at koryu.com and try to find pictures of people not wearing hakama.

It just that the most popular Japanese martial arts outside of Japan, judo and karate (yes, I know), are arts that don't use hakama. Because of this, non-Japanese think hakama-wearing is a rare thing.

So I think a better question than, "Why do some aikidoka wear hakama?" is, "Why do some budoka not wear hakama?"

I've heard the "hide your footwork" theory before, and I just don't buy it, as hakama don't actually hide your movements.

Sven Groot 03-29-2003 01:31 PM

The explanation that was given at my dojo is in fact that the Hakama serves to hide ones legs. And it does seem to be at least partly true, because when my sensei wants us to really see how he's standing, he holds his hakama up.

Also, that is the reason beginners don't wear it. The Hakama would conceil errors in stance and movement, so sensei/sempai can't correct you. That and the cost as was mentioned above.

[EDIT: Stupid spelling mistakes :mad:]

Greg Jennings 03-29-2003 01:47 PM

Quote:

Rachel Massey (rachmass) wrote:
I rode and showed horses (hunt seat) for 25 years, and only wore chaps occassionally in training. The chaps I wore (and everyone else I knew who wore them) were leather or suede and really stuck your legs to the saddle. I find it rather difficult to believe that a soft material such as linen, cotton, or the like would ever be used in this context, as it would slide dreadfully against any leather.

just my $.02 as both a retired equestrian and an active aikidoka.

I was born and raised on a cattle operation. I rode horses wherever the cattle went. Not in a pasture or show ring (although I've done my fair share of barrel racing).

The chaps I wore then were of heavy leather and were there primarly to protect my pants and my legs from briars, thorns, etc. although they did help with "seat" and with chafing.

Today, my chaps are of 1000 denier nylon. They don't help my seat at all; they're actually sort of slick. They're wonderful with chafing, though. That's important because I only get to ride on weekends. They are incredible protection against briars and thorns. They are also snake proof which is important here as we have lots of rattlesnakes and cottonmouth. Someone says "Wait, I've never seen horse riding chaps like that". And that would be correct. They are are not intended as horse riding chaps.

So, just as the construction of my chaps changed with their purpose, isn't it possible that the joba hakama did also? That they were originally made of something much heavier and that they lightened up when they became just ordinary clothing?

Speaking of that, I have another example of that. Do you know what a "duster" is? They were originally made out of oil cloth and would shed water. My nephew, back when he was caught up in the Urban Cowboy scene, had one made out of some thin manmade fabric. It wouldn't shed water, but it looked cool enough for him to pay $100 for it.

And, while I'm on an example tear, I have a hakama made of heavy canvas that would certainly shed briars.

Hi Modesto Sensei: My bad, I meant Joba, not "Juba". If I understand the term correctly, it refers to horse riding. I can't remember where I originally picked up the term. But I distinctly remember them being called "joba hakama" and it was supposed to translate to "horse riding clothing that one steps into" or something like that.

Again, I'm pulling from memory, but the "joba hakama" was to differentiate them from a different kind of hakama that was not split and was very long intended to be folded up between the calves and thighs.

None of that addresses Goldsbury Sensei's comments, however, about the correctness of them actually being for horse riding. I'd found that interesting and would like to hear more.

Regards,

Greg Jennings 03-29-2003 01:51 PM

Quote:

Sven Groot wrote:
The explanation that was given at my dojo is in fact that the Hakama serves to hide ones legs. And it does seem to be at least partly true, because when my sensei wants us to really see how he's standing, he holds his hakama up.

I was told that that explanation was bogus as the hakama was tucked up during duels to avoid tripping as the sleeves of the upper garment were tied back to avoid snagging, etc.

Take it for what it's worth,

Best Regards,

Chuck Clark 03-29-2003 02:24 PM

The people that I know have feet that're hooked on to their legs and their legs are hooked on to their butts...

All foot movement shows in the hips, and another good monitor of what the hips and feet are doing is the shoulders.

deepsoup 03-29-2003 02:32 PM

Quote:

C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
All foot movement shows in the hips, and another good monitor of what the hips and feet are doing is the shoulders.

I read somewhere that Foley artists always watch a person's shoulders when they're dubbing the sound of footsteps. Apparently its much easier to stay in time than if you watch the feet.

Sean

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