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-   -   Poll: Do you think katatedori (same side wrist grab) in and of itself could be an effective attack? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3512)

AikiWeb System 03-02-2003 12:01 AM

AikiWeb Poll for the week of March 2, 2003:

Do you think katatedori (same side wrist grab) in and of itself could be an effective attack?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.

Nacho_mx 03-02-2003 09:37 AM

I voted yes, a well executed katatedori can upset nageīs balance and set him up for a punch in the face, a stab to the stomach, a knee to the groin, a headbutt...you get the picture.

Hanna B 03-02-2003 09:40 AM

Yes, I think so. But I do not believe that this is the reason why we practise so much of it.

akiy 03-02-2003 09:52 AM

Quote:

Ignacio Jaramillo (Nacho_mx) wrote:
I voted yes, a well executed katatedori can upset nageīs balance and set him up for a punch in the face, a stab to the stomach, a knee to the groin, a headbutt...you get the picture.

But, in that case, would the attack have been just katatedori in and of itself? Or would katatedori have been a "set up" (as you put it) for a differet, "real" (whatever that means) attack?

-- Jun

akiy 03-02-2003 09:55 AM

Also, I'm curious to ask everyone here:

What do you physically do to nage in a katatedori attack in your dojo? What's the intent of the attack?

-- Jun

DanielR 03-02-2003 10:01 AM

I think the way we're taught is that the goal is to prevent the nage from drawing the sword. Hence the attack is to push the arm kind of in and down (towards nage's body).

Nacho_mx 03-02-2003 10:28 AM

Quote:

Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Also, I'm curious to ask everyone here:

What do you physically do to nage in a katatedori attack in your dojo? What's the intent of the attack?

-- Jun

We donīt think of katatedori as an attack, but as an exercise of exchanging and blending energy. That said we try to restrict nageīs movement, not just his arm, but all his/her body. For nage to break ukeīs balance and escape the hold he/she must blend with proper tai sabaki. When I show katatedori sototenkan to the newbies I show how uke can follow up with an attack, so (I think) they get the point that katatedori is a real situation they could face.

Evza 03-02-2003 10:39 AM

"What do you physically do to nage in a katatedori attack in your dojo?"

We just grab his hand

"What's the intent of the attack?"

but with the intent to continue with a punch or a kick.

Hanna B 03-02-2003 10:44 AM

Currently, the most used concept around is that the grab is used to control nage - not just stop him from moving, but through the wrist grab connect to his/her center and bring tori down to the ground.

In normal keiko, I explain to my students, we pretend that tori is so fast in doing the technique that uke did not have tome to pull tori to the ground (although nage stood there for ten seconds trying to figure out what to do...) This way, you get a lot more comitted grabs with full palm of the hand an d which has a clear intent, not just some fingers vaguely holding your wrist. We say that a stiff grab could maybe prevent tori from moving, but this is not interesting. An interesting grab is a grab that can move the person grabbed.

I consider it a useful concept but not "the truth".

Nacho_mx 03-02-2003 11:19 AM

Quote:

We say that a stiff grab could maybe prevent tori from moving, but this is not interesting. An interesting grab is a grab that can move the person grabbed.
I agree the grab should be able to unbalance and move nage. Katatedori is like the hub connecting the energies of uke and nage, therefore the grab should not be stiff (clutching the fist and trying to squeeze the life out of your parner) but natural and using the whole hand. If done correctly one sticks to nage no matter how hard it tries to swat/push/pull you...the only answer left to him/her is to blend.

Ta Kung 03-03-2003 02:40 AM

I voted no. IMHO it's not an effective attack by itself, and it's not meant to be. It's a good way to practise the basics in Aikido, and it's and ok technique to to followups from. But no way do I find only the grab as an effective attack. Sure, you can break ukes balance. But then what? You have to move on to another technique.

Perhaps if you're really strong, you can pinch his hand off? THAT would be an effective/impressive attack. :)

With respect,

Patrik

PS. I saw a movie a few days ago. A man grabbed another mans hand (gyaku hanmi katate dori!) and put out his cigarette in his palm. Ouch!

Charles Bergman 03-03-2003 08:32 AM

Katatedori simulates punch
 
I beleive it was in Aikido Shugyo: Harmony in Confrontation where I read that the purpose of wrist grab attacks such as Katatedori are to simulate punching attacks.

Shioda Gozo Sensei says (I'm paraphrasing)that these attacks mirror the movement, timing and balance of a punching attack, but take the fear out for beginners.

Therefore, I answered "NO" to the poll question, because Katatedori is only meant to simulate an attack for the prupose of learning basic movement, not be an actual effective attack in and of itself.

P.S. If you haven't read it yet, Shioda Sensei's book is very interesting, more for the ancedotes and autobiographical stuff.

CB:ai: :ki: :do:

andrew 03-03-2003 08:39 AM

Re: Katatedori simulates punch
 
Quote:

Charles Bergman wrote:
Shioda Gozo Sensei says (I'm paraphrasing)that these attacks mirror the movement, timing and balance of a punching attack, but take the fear out for beginners.

Now, I can't say I could do much with Katatedori, but I was once (on request) forced to the floor through this attack. Bam, and I was down.

So I think it can be used as an attack, but only by somebody who knows very VERY well how the body works.

andrew

Thorin 03-03-2003 02:09 PM

I believe that it can be used to pull nage off balance to the ground.

It can be used as the beginning of a more extensive attack.

But, I also think that other than being an effective attack, it can be seen as a common attack (although not by trained martial artists). It is fairly common for someone to reach out and grab your wrist in an attempt to control you.

deepsoup 03-03-2003 03:21 PM

Quote:

James Paxton (Thorin) wrote:
I believe that it can be used to pull nage off balance to the ground.

Thats why I voted yes. I wasn't really thinking of tachi waza so much as hanmi handachi, where its quite possible for uke to plant you on your face if you're not paying attention.

Sean

x

Jappzz 03-04-2003 05:13 AM

I voted yes.

I think the issue here is to define both "effective" AND "attack" in a proper way. Considering that nage executes a wrist grab to limit tori's field of movement and succeeds in doing so, he has, according to his motive performed an "effective attack. If we on the other hand stipulate that an "attack" has to be a singular action leading to immediate neutralization of tori by force, nage has clearly failed to do so.

Hugs

Jesper

one4k4 03-04-2003 08:52 AM

I answered NO as well, and personally I think of katatedori as a uke-controlling-(or trying to)nage type movement. Think: restraint. And I don't think of restraint as an attack, per se, but something that can lead to an attack. Which is not katatedori in and of itself.

But I can also agree that it has too do with moving nage's center down, thus imbalancing him. Thus helping the restraint.

My wife frequently has to restrain in the school she works at (special ed) and some of the techniques used are quite different than some of the Aiki ones I've seen thus far, but a good grab on the wrist is worth it's weight in gold. ;)

akiy 03-04-2003 10:30 AM

So, some follow-up questions which I can't quite ask easily in a poll...

How is katatedori different than, say, the opening movement in shihonage to you?

If katatedori were part of a "combination" attack (ie katatedori mentsuki (same side grab, punch to the face with the other hand)), what physical effect would the katatedori have? Is it just a restraint?

If katatedori is just an exercise for beginning students to grasp the basics of things like maai and timing, why do we spend so much time on it in pretty much every aikido dojo?

Lastly, just an anecdote. Training with my teacher in the tenkan exercise (also known as "tai no henko"), I've been taken down, my face nearly getting planted into the ground, from a simple katatedori...

-- Jun

Nacho_mx 03-04-2003 11:15 AM

Quote:

If katatedori is just an exercise for beginning students to grasp the basics of things like maai and timing, why do we spend so much time on it in pretty much every aikido dojo?
Donīt you just answered your own question?;)

Charles Bergman 03-04-2003 02:12 PM

I was just relating what I've read, but I tend to agree with Jarmillo's post. Shioda Sensei relates in his book that O'Sensei said that Atemi was 70% of Aikido (the other 30% is Nage Waza).

If this is true, then it would make sense to practice alot.

In a real fight, its also likely that a person my grab you or try to grapple. This would allow you to use the techinques practised from a wrist grab. I still don't think Katatedori is meant as an initial attack in and of itself (at least not where I'm from).

DGLinden 03-04-2003 02:46 PM

Jun,

I use katatedori as an offensive technique when confronted by knife. In the real world a man usually uses a knife to threaten rather than attack cold. To do this he must 'show' the knife and at this instant I teach the uke to become the aggeresor and grab the wrist holding the knife. It sounds odd but once you have trained to do it you can grab a wrist so fast and then atack nage(uke)'s center and do what ever.

After the students get competant to grab and hit it nearly every time I then change the mind set and tell them that they must attack by showing the knife and as uke/nage attacks their wrist they do the traditional techniqes. It works so very well. I have taught this series in seminars and workshops and I am always amazed how well people come to understand this attack.

BTW. I just came from ASU.ORG Congratulations.

DGLinden 03-04-2003 02:49 PM

Please excuse any mispelled words, I'm forced to work without the benefit of review today.

ian 03-05-2003 10:08 AM

In some ways katate dori is the source of all attacks. Predominantly we practice it because it is easier to feel the contact an blend.

However, it is easy to cut someone down to the floor (if they are of similar size) by grabbing their forearm and cutting it down as if with a sword (one or two hands, as long as you direct the elbow).

Also, forcing someone's arm down can keep the near leg from kicking (since the uke's weight is forced on to it).

Probably most importantly, we all assume that techniques are done when someone attacks, but I'm certain that originally it tended to be the other way around i.e. you start by grabbing someone, then putting a technique (particularly pins) on them (ikkyo, sankyo, nikkyo, shiho-nage).

Other than blending exercises we always use katatedori as if it is a real attack i.e. the opponent is forcing them to the ground or the other hand is coming in for a strike (pulling you on to a punch).

I've also been grabbed by agressors more times than I have been directly punched in real life.

Ian

Roger C. Marks 03-05-2003 03:46 PM

katate dori is a real attack insofar that if you don't respond there is always the possible follow up, perhaps a knife in the other hand while you are placed in harms way unbalanced and distracted with the katate dori and you are dead. I'm considering 'real' world here, not our aiki dojo and yes, IMO a wrist grab is a real world attack and should not be ignored.

Scott Morris 03-05-2003 09:38 PM

Jun,

I belive that katate dori was the response to nage holding a tanto or sword. Many of the open-hand technique that are taught in my dojo, as well as many dojo in ASU, cross over to bokken, jo, tanto....ect. This is taught to help with maai and judging the intent of uke's attack. Many of the hand/wrist grabs were also developed to prevent nage from drawing the sword. If uke is strong, sometimes the only way to draw your bokken/sword would be to use

tenkan, or ushiro movement.

Scott


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