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Johnny Chiutten 01-27-2003 02:56 PM

Combat application & Daily living
One who practices Martial arts must be able to apply it in combat and in daily life as well.There are many students who has been practicing Martial arts ( any kind of Martial Arts)for many years, yet they cannot fight at all, even when it is necessary.What they have practiced is not genuine Martial Art but a demonstrative form of what some masters call "Flowery FIst and embroidery kicks"

All martial arts become meaningless as martial art if it is devoid of its fighting function.This does not imply that a martial art student must fight to justify the art. But it is imperative for an experienced practitioner that he / she be able to put up a decent defence when attacked.So I think its vital to a practicing martial artist to honestly evaluate if he/she is training in realistically in the dojo. Otherwise you are just practicing "flowery fist and embroidery kicks"

Also more important than combat is the philosophy and peaceful application of your martial art training in your daily life.
A martial artist for example should have more zest, vitality in work and play. More calmness of mind and clarity of thought even under demanding situations.
If you do not have the strength to run up a flight of stairs or are easily irritated and nervous despite many years of training then your practice have been futile.



mattholmes 01-27-2003 08:45 PM

I'm sorry; I really don't mean this to appear disrespectful, but what, exactly is you question/subject for discussion?

Edward 01-27-2003 08:59 PM

So Johnny, when was the last time you used your MA training to kick some butt? And who were the unlucky people/punching bags?

aikido_fudoshin 01-27-2003 09:16 PM

I agree with you Johnny. I think a lot of people get into martial arts for rank. They want to reach black belt, then quit, just to say they did that and never really make an attempt to fully understand the principles. Many, I think, just go through the motions because they are not really there to train. They have some interest in the art but their using it as a social place to make friends. I dont think theres anything wrong with that as long as you train at a place where they arent that serious. But to use the martial art effectively you have to train hard and understand how to apply the princples to every situation.

Your comments on clarity and mindfulness apply greatly to Aikido and this is probably the main reason why I'm involved in it. The techniques, principles, etc. all apply directly to everyday life. For example when dealing with a problem, dont fight it and let it build up within, blend with it and find ways to manipulate the outcome so it benefits everyone. In the end you will be a much more balanced person physically, martially, and most important psychologically.

ian 01-28-2003 06:03 AM

I think the question is - can aikido be spiritual without its martial aspect? For me, I would agree that it can't, although I have learnt alot about aikido from those who think otherwise.

The accepting 90% of the attack and the life/death aspect of aikido to me is an important illustration of trying to understand life in a buddhist sense. Also it seperates the armchair philosophy from actual practise of form and physicality (joining thought with reality). For me though, it contains within it a humerous irony, because through practising a self-defence you can loose fear of death, and thus not require a 'self-defence' except for spiritual practise.


Johnny Chiutten 01-28-2003 07:48 PM


Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
So Johnny, when was the last time you used your MA training to kick some butt? And who were the unlucky people/punching bags?

Thanks Edward.

I dont go around kicking peoples butt. But Im a combat instructor in the army and i teach raw recruits how to survive!

Johnny Chiutten 01-28-2003 07:50 PM


Matt Holmes (mattholmes) wrote:
I'm sorry; I really don't mean this to appear disrespectful, but what, exactly is you question/subject for discussion?

I'm just making a statement. "Calling a spade a spade"

Edward 01-28-2003 09:50 PM


Johnny Chiutten wrote:
Thanks Edward.

I dont go around kicking peoples butt. But Im a combat instructor in the army and i teach raw recruits how to survive!

I understand that aikido has many practical applications in army and law enforcement training. But for us common people, our main worry is to learn how to survive the stress in our jobs and daily lives, get a good cardio-vascular work-out, have fun rolling on the mats, and benefit from whatever aikido has to offer on the spiritual level, associated with hard physical practice without having to be martial. Please note that Osensei, following the tradition of buddhist monks, spent a lot of his time doing hard farming work, beside his aikido and long praying hours.

If I have any worries about my personal safety, I will call the police...

Jason Tonks 01-29-2003 06:44 AM

Good post Johnny. I agree entirely. People are free to train anyway they like at the end of the day, but they should be aware of what they are doing. If there is no martial element involved, there is no real cultivation of the spirit, which in my belief is the most important aspect of training. When punches and kicks are all aimed to miss, how can a practicioner hope to deal with a realistic situation. As you say there must be a balance to martial training. My favourite quote regarding this was from a Sensei describing the late Sensei Tadashi Abe. He said he had martial fire in his belly and the look of harmony in his eyes. This is what I personally feel a martial artist should aspire to.

All the best

Jason T

MikeE 01-29-2003 11:40 AM


I love the Abe Sensei quote!!

I very much agree. But, I also believe each person has their own ideals and goals of what they want to get out of training.

As a good Budo-buddy once said to me: "Some people are their for their training...and some people are their for your training. But, when it comes down to it, you yourself is singularly responsible for yourself."

udoka1 01-29-2003 03:52 PM

i totally agree with you man, you should be able to handle yourself in any given situation. far too many times ive seen what i like to call hair-dressing aikido because it only looks good it would never work on the streets unless your opponent is a retard. i think this is the main reason for such a high dropout rate at alot of dojos. were i practice we mainly deal with real application however we do go into more classical aspects but it is stated clearly that this is only an exercise not an actual technique. like tenchinage for example, no one would remain holding on to you unless ,like i said "theyre a retard".

MikeE 01-29-2003 10:27 PM

I agree with your premise on "realistic technique" ...but I also realize that these techniques (such as tenchinage) would never have made it into our repertoire unless they had "realistic" application.

Ryotedori Tenchinage may be a stylistic way of learning tenchinage...but, Tenchinage is a very versatile and very powerful technique in realistic situations if you look at the upper hand being atemi and the lower hand either striking, blocking or, disarming.

If you ask any of my students, most of the time they never touch me before I perform tenchinage on them.

Edward 01-29-2003 11:06 PM

It's always interesting to see how people give their opinions about the effectiveness or lack of it for techniques which have been practiced for several hundred years.

If your only concern is street effective, then you are a street guy, and you should not be allowed in any decent dojo. Not all techniques are street effective, some of them are meant to develop your brain, improve your ki, teach you harmony...etc. For the ones interested only in the practical aspect, I am not sure if aikido is the right "art" for them.

Jason Tonks 01-30-2003 01:59 AM

Edward, surely you mean if you're a thug then you should not be allowed to train. There is a big difference between a thug and a well trained capable martial artist, or at least there should be. I see nothing wrong with training purely for practicality. It's not the only reason I train, but it must be present otherwise people who think they are learning a martial art are being short changed. I believe the ki, harmony, etc aspect you alluded to are developed through hard constant training.

All the best

Jason T

Edward 01-30-2003 02:19 AM

Hello Jason, I fully agree with you. I am a hard trainer myself (7 days a week, about 15 hours). I do believe that you only develop your skills through very hard practice. But I think that if aikido becomes too concerned with practical situations, it is not aikido anymore. At least not in the way its founder viewed it. I think that for people concerned about their safety and would like to learn self-defence, there are special courses exactly for that purpose. For people concerned with fighting and beating each other, well, I won't comment so that I won't sound too harsh. I believe that aikido comes as a package, that it is not a practical way of self-defence although it could be used as such in certain situations, but the purpose of aikido is at a completely different level. That's why I am completely against advertizing aikido as a self-defence art, because this would be misleading the students. With a minimum of 10 years training to gain some efficiency, I wonder if there aren't quicker and more practical ways to learn self-defence.

Now some occasional training against guns, rifles, knives and some other potentially lethal situations is very valuable, but not training in Katatetori because no body will grab like that on the street is totally missing the point.

So basically we say the same thing different way.

Sorry for the long post.


Jason Tonks 01-30-2003 03:20 AM

Alright there Edward. I believe you are right. Ethically we are coming from the same standpoint of view.

All the best

Jason T

Jeff Tibbetts 01-30-2003 11:40 AM

Edward, well said. I think that's a great way to answer this question that comes up all the time. Thank you.

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