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locknthrow 12-29-2002 11:27 PM

flurry of punches
 
This is another problem that I have had. How do you deal with a flurry of punches? You've seen how people can go wild and throw every kind of punch. It doesn't matter if it connects or not its just one after another say 10 or 20. None of them quite straight and none of them quite a hook. Any thoughts?

shihonage 12-29-2002 11:41 PM

There's always this -

locknthrow 12-29-2002 11:49 PM

lol true

Thalib 12-30-2002 12:02 AM

Hmmm...

Get out of the raging bull's way...

ole~...

The attacker is probably not even looking at you anyway...

Edward 12-30-2002 03:49 AM

Deal with the first punch!

L. Camejo 12-30-2002 06:47 AM

Keep maai.

Pick a punch and deal with it.

Look for the opening between punches (i.e. as one hand retracts and the other is about to extend) and irimi.

Use atemi waza (shomen ate, aigamae ate/irimi nage). Not the spinning ones, the direct ones.

My 2 cents.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Bruce Baker 12-30-2002 06:49 AM

If you can't get your technique for upper body to work, the preferred method of takedown is to attack the knees.

Oops, not aikido.

Thinking in terms of always being vertical is quite limiting. You must observe where attacks are coming from and what areas are open to your attacks,or at least weak to defend. If you read any of Don Draeger early books about self defense, and description of martial arts, you will see how openings are attacked and defended. Even if the opponent has strong areas, be it a flurry of punches or whatever, there is still an area of weakness somewhere else.

Nice graphic Alex, but usually a hip throw is used, and you have to accept a few hits from punches, but then that is small in exchange for what you do to the puncher who becomes the winner of the slammy award.

opherdonchin 12-30-2002 07:11 AM

Quote:

If you can't get your technique for upper body to work, the preferred method of takedown is to attack the knees.

Oops, not aikido.
Who says? We've had knee takedowns in all the styles I've ever practiced.

erikmenzel 12-30-2002 07:28 AM

Quote:

Bruce Baker wrote:
Oops, not aikido.

Why not? Aiki otoshi, yonkyo on anckle are also ok.

Bruce Baker 12-30-2002 07:29 AM

Then stop whining Opher and offer some advice that will apply to subject rather than picking apart a suggestion to look somewhere else beyond the flurry of punches?

Maybe I have been examining books that are too old, practices of the 1940s - 1980s, out of step with these modern aikido classes?

If you have read self defense by many of the top practitioners, then a kick to the knees is in every style you have practiced, including Aikido?

Interesting ... I haven't seen that used in any Aikido class or seminar in the last five years I have been to? I will have to get about a bit more to see where I have missed that practice?

Meanwhile, how about answers to the question, eh?

Thalib 12-30-2002 07:35 AM

I've seen kicks and punches used by Kubota Ikuhiro shihan (Aikikai), ask his students at Nara. But, that's another story.

MikeE 12-30-2002 08:10 AM

Geez Bruce,

Didn't you get what you wanted for the holidays. Relax, take a deep breath.

BTW, we use kicks as a form of atemi when the need arises and train to do so.

Thalib 12-30-2002 08:48 AM

Actually come to think of it...

Go ahead and use kicks, punches, grapple, suplexes, whatever. If that was a quick way to defend oneself and others by all means. But, when one starts to tire out and not making any difference, only then one would appreciate Aiki.

Actually it is quite the reverse, not that when Aiki does not work then one resort to "kicks and punches", but when "kicks and punches" do not work one resorts to Aiki.

I was told by a sensei that Aiki techniques are design to balance out (deal with) powerful, balanced, and Aiki or Ki attacks where one's conventional "punching, kicking, grappling, or locking" has no effects.

Come to think of it, Aiki is the last resort.

Brian H 12-30-2002 09:24 AM

Pepper Spray (a.k.a. Atemi in a can)

Then Irimi Nage

JW 12-30-2002 09:32 AM

Re: flurry of punches
 
Quote:

Mike Iainttellin (locknthrow) wrote:
This is another problem that I have had. How do you deal with a flurry of punches? You've seen how people can go wild and throw every kind of punch.

According to what O-sensei said you should start seeing little pebble-sized glowing things right before each punch, showing you where the punches will go..... don't you guys see those? I suppose you could walk right in and irimi him.....

This is the problem that I feel is exposed sometimes in situations like the flurry-of-punches scenerio. The problem is that obviously ultra-fast reflexes will make situations like this a piece of cake, but hopefully aikido does not demand nage to be bigger, stronger, faster etc than his attacker, right?
There must be some solution to this problem that does not depend on superior speed.

I think we should all practice with this attack, I think some time with it would be enlightening--I sure wonder how I would do.

But we've heard some good answers--
-should have dealt with attacker before he
closed the distance for punching
-go for the legs
-enter when it is safeEST if it doesn't get
SAFE (entry timed to withdrawl of punches)
--JW

creinig 12-30-2002 09:51 AM

Re: Re: flurry of punches
 
Quote:

Jonathan Wong (JW) wrote:
But we've heard some good answers--

-should have dealt with attacker before he

closed the distance for punching

-go for the legs

-enter when it is safeEST if it doesn't get

SAFE (entry timed to withdrawl of punches)

You forgot the standard "get off the line" (see the 3rd reply) :)

Trowing a flurry should be pretty hard if your target constantly moves to behind your back...

fullerfury 12-30-2002 10:07 AM

Unbalancing the attacker is critical under any circumstances, and defending against a flurry of punches is no exception to this. I believe the answer lies in finding the best method to accomplish this.

I would suggest irimi...either directly into the attacker, where nage certainly would have to absorb some percentage of the blow...the intent of the irimi must be to capture uke's focus and balance thoereticaly ending the onslaught of attack and winning back the initiative, or irimi away/behind the attacker until the opportunity arises to stretch uke's balance out and behond his balance point. In either case nage will more than likely not remain unscathed.

opherdonchin 12-30-2002 10:22 AM

If uke is really coming on too hard to notice things then a duck-under-come-behind move as is often practiced with yokomenuchi might be just the thing to put yourself in a safe and controlling position without actually passing through the storm.

SeiserL 12-30-2002 10:25 AM

IMHO, most flury of punches or Wing Chun straight blasts, are directly to the front. Get off the line and keep your distance, Ma-ai. Tenkan to the side or rear and take their balance. Or, if staying in front, blend with the punches with soft rolling blocks and redirect them across their own body's centerline until you can pin the arms (Wing Chun Phong-Sau)and take their balance with Irimi-nage. Or, if quick enough, intercept and deflect one punch as you enter and take their balance Irimi-nage.

Until again,

Lynn

JPT 12-30-2002 07:05 PM

Quote:

I think we should all practice with this attack, I think some time with it would be enlightening--I sure wonder how I would do.
I agree, practise it using boxing gloves. The timing for the entry into the technique will be much harder because the attacks will be faster & flowing (rather than the single, karate style, attack of normal training) so don't be surprised if you get hit at first.

:triangle: :square: :circle:

Edward 12-30-2002 11:45 PM

If you really launch a successfull defense against the first punch, then the others won't follow. If you can't do that yet (I can't) then you will be hit even by a single punch attack.

locknthrow 12-31-2002 12:30 AM

Hey those are all great answers..I really like the duck and go behind. I've got a funny story of when I asked a "big bad shodan" the same question. He was one of those guys that thinks he has got it all mastered and Osensei probably could have picked up a few things from him. I didn't know this at the time though. This particular day he had this guy with him that was kinda of like his little groupie. Anyway he told me to use small circular motions with my hands starting from the inside and going out. Kind of like "wax on wax off". then he say's "here I'll show you!"

Groupie guy says, "oh no, your in for it now!" (talking about me)

Well I didn't mean for any sparring match to occur, little white belt me was just asking a question. But both of the guys there were getting pumped up.

"c'mon!" says shodan

Well I start giving him punch after punch about a quarter inch from his nose. Nothing fancy that anybody else in the world coudn't do. I was walking forward and he was backing up. Mr. Shodan's "circle blocks" never blocked a single punch! He was a little late or early on every "block". I'm not even going fast,like maybe 70 %, because I didn't want to get these guys too excited. I walked till he had backed all the way up to the far wall,so I stopped punching because I didn't want to cram him up against the wall. So I think the demo is over and drop my hands. As soon as I quit he comes and hip throws me.

"See?" says shodan.

"uhhhh yeah..that was great..thanks", says I.

"Wow! Coooooool!", says groupie with awe in his eyes for shodan.

I still wonder if Shodan knows he would have gotten hit 16 or 17 times in the nose....

These guys are in every dojo aren't they? lol

Thalib 12-31-2002 01:07 AM

It is quite honorable of Iainttellin-san not to embarass him in his own dojo. But if I was his uke, I probably wouldn't have been so nice. Because my responsibility as an uke is to let nage realize if nage is doing serious mistakes.

But of course I wouldn't do this when it is an enbu (demonstration). But, I would do it if he was my training partner. Because I want to send him the "message" of training sincerely and honestly.

JW 01-01-2003 09:07 PM

What a hilarious story! I know that KIND of person but never did I imagine that that attitude could be so extreme in real life! They must have been joking! Nice of them to put themselves at the butt of the joke for everyone..
Quote:

Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
But if I was his uke, I probably wouldn't have been so nice. Because my responsibility as an uke is to let nage realize if nage is doing serious mistakes.

Yes that's of course true.. but the sad thing is that 15 punches stopping right at the nose is more than enough to get the message across to a normal person! I mean I don't consider it irresposible to not hit a person in this situation because showing that you COULD have hit him should be enough in my opinion. I mean if he is honest well then you have made it JUST as clear as if you DID hit him.. except you saved him the bloody nose. It is too bad that we have people that could ever make it necessary to actually connect with the punches and cause injury, just for the sake of getting the message across.

I know *I* don't need to be hit, in order to be told I was too slow..
--JW

locknthrow 01-02-2003 12:26 AM

Well it was just me, shodan and groupie there. Shodan acted like he deflected everyone. Groupie acted like he just saw the throw. but hey I knew and anyway I WANTED to learn something. I didn't think of it as a "victory" I was just disappointed that where I was training a shodan couldn't stop that little attack. Didn't give me alot to look forward to. But later on, if you read my post in the introductions, I think I found out why the students at this dojo didn't have the answer. ;)


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