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-   -   Aikido and Aiki jujutsu (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308)

Paul 10-02-2000 10:08 AM

We aikidoka are very ignorant with regards to Aiki jujutsu how many of us have taken part in or even watched an Aiki jujutsu (one where the lineage lineage and teaching certificates of the instructor could be examined). I am saddened when after watching a certain aikido classes/deshi/technoques people come out with "that wasn't aikido that was aiki jujutsu" without ever having studied aiki jujustu in any form emic or etic. From dynamic aikido, Shioda, the auther tells us that Shioda sensei had to spend "days" in bed recovering after taking ukemi for O'sensei at a palace demo. This was after aikido was officially named. How many of us have been in such a bad way that we were bed ridden after taking ukemi for a demonstration? Before anyone counters that Shioda suffered no broken bones or any lasting physical damage, the first uke had his arm broken by O'sensei hance the reason shioda had to be uke for the whole performance.
A good book to read on this subject is; Unlocking the secrets of aiki jujutsu by H.E Davey, ISBN: 1570281211. He writes an excellent comment on http://www.amazon.co.uk or read the two part essay with kondo(?) sensei on Daito ryu's home page.
One final thought Davey in his book tells us that he was asked to take part in a budo demonstration in he and his group performed their Aiki jujutsu demo ands left the mat. Followning them was the Yoshinkan demo with Gozo Shioda him self now in Davey's own words Shioda's demo was much fiercer and violent than his groups however no one thought or questioned what was being shown as anything other than aikido.
We practice aikido in all its facets hard and soft not aikijujutsu. Saotome in Aikido and the way of harmony that aikido must be experienced in all its forms from the hardest to the softest . You would call a doctor to take a look at your car would you?
We need to open our minds to all of aikido and see it for what it is and not what we would make it.

Regards Paul

orenb 10-02-2000 10:20 AM

Right on the money, if you ask me.

Aiki1 10-03-2000 12:17 AM

Not to me. Aikido isn't, to me, what YOU are making it out to be. And by the way, I have put much effort in over the years to understand the approach of several styles and off-shoots of Aikijujutsu - Daito ryu, Roppokai, Shidare Yanagi ryu Hakko ryu and others.

Hard and rough does NOT make Aikido "real" or "better" or "anything" in fact, just rough.

orenb 10-03-2000 01:21 AM

Well, Aikido is no more then O' Sensei made it out to be. And i know that his style ( ie The original style ) of Aikido was a lot rougher than most of the styles practiced today.

Aiki1 10-03-2000 02:07 AM

Quote:

orenb wrote:
Well, Aikido is no more then O' Sensei made it out to be. And i know that his style ( ie The original style ) of Aikido was a lot rougher than most of the styles practiced today.
No offense, but this is an inaccurate arguement. It's as erroneous to call O Sensei's early practice "his style" as it is to call his later practice the same. It was all his style, and in some ways it changed, evolved, developed, whatever, over the years. It was also taught differently to different "disciples." By O Sensei himself. For every technique done "hard" that can be documented on tape today, another clip of the same technique but done "softer" or differently, can probably be produced also (and probably by me.) So, the "Original Style" of O Sensei is not a "set" thing, but like Aikido itself, a fluid entity and process.

Paul 10-04-2000 07:27 AM

Hard and soft
 
I think you are straying away from my origional point. I made no judgement on hard/soft aikido, infact that was the very essence of my argument, aikido as pointed out can be both hard or soft and that we should try not to pass judgement on either. Again as we all know O'sensei's aikido was harder in the early days perhaps (as I believe) because he was a very robust man therefore l this was reflected in his practice. As an old man his aikido was softer how could it be otherwise as his body softened. Yet he lost none of his power as uchi deshi to him constantly tell us. Which aikido is wrong? I suggest that neither are wrong and that both are simply aikido executed with a different personality. That of a brash adventurer and finally as calm peaceful man. If we look at the book budo which points out the exactness of O'sensei's technique as a young man (i say young he was Fifty) and as an old man a wakayama with atemi and all. I feel that the technique never really changed but the feeling in which they were executed did. Aikido is aikido for better or for worse, hard or soft.


Regards Paul.

Aiki1 10-06-2000 11:48 AM

Re: Hard and soft
 
Quote:

Paul wrote:
I think you are straying away from my origional point. I made no judgement on hard/soft aikido, infact that was the very essence of my argument, aikido as pointed out can be both hard or soft and that we should try not to pass judgement on either. Again as we all know O'sensei's aikido was harder in the early days perhaps (as I believe) because he was a very robust man therefore l this was reflected in his practice. As an old man his aikido was softer how could it be otherwise as his body softened. Yet he lost none of his power as uchi deshi to him constantly tell us. Which aikido is wrong? I suggest that neither are wrong and that both are simply aikido executed with a different personality. That of a brash adventurer and finally as calm peaceful man. If we look at the book budo which points out the exactness of O'sensei's technique as a young man (i say young he was Fifty) and as an old man a wakayama with atemi and all. I feel that the technique never really changed but the feeling in which they were executed did. Aikido is aikido for better or for worse, hard or soft.
I'm not tyring to be disputive, but as an instructor for 18 years, I have to make distinctions and judgements about things like this. In fact, there are times when I see someone, an instructor or student, and I can say, for my own judgement - His/her Aikido is great - OR - His/her Aiki-taijutsu is great, but his/her actual Aikido isn't.

Ther are many subtle distinctions.

W^2 10-06-2000 04:00 PM

I think semantics are getting in the way of a more lucid exchange on the subject of this thread.

Aikido is a way or path and Aikijujutsu, Aikijutsu, and Aiki no jutsu are techniques. The distinction between them can be subtle/confusing because they're related [technically]. However, Aikido has a unique set of fundamental principles, ideology, methodolgy, spirituality, and innovative techniques . Our interpretations of what Aikido is and isn't are more reflective [of personal growth] than definitive; we shouldn't put the Universe in a box.

woutersp 10-07-2000 05:53 AM

Quote:

Aiki1 wrote:
Not to me. Aikido isn't, to me, what YOU are making it out to be. And by the way, I have put much effort in over the years to understand the approach of several styles and off-shoots of Aikijujutsu - Daito ryu, Roppokai, Shidare Yanagi ryu Hakko ryu and others.

Hard and rough does NOT make Aikido "real" or "better" or "anything" in fact, just rough.

May I remind you of the fact that Daito Ryu is not an off-shoot of Aikijujutsu but the original form. Aikijujutsu, of which also originated the Aikido of Master Ueshiba through the teachings of Takeda Sokaku, was founded under the name Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu by Minamoto Yoshimitsu (aka Shinra Saburo).
Kind regards,
Peter

Aiki1 10-07-2000 11:15 AM

Quote:

woutersp wrote:
Quote:

Aiki1 wrote:
Not to me. Aikido isn't, to me, what YOU are making it out to be. And by the way, I have put much effort in over the years to understand the approach of several styles and off-shoots of Aikijujutsu - Daito ryu, Roppokai, Shidare Yanagi ryu Hakko ryu and others.

Hard and rough does NOT make Aikido "real" or "better" or "anything" in fact, just rough.

May I remind you of the fact that Daito Ryu is not an off-shoot of Aikijujutsu but the original form. Aikijujutsu, of which also originated the Aikido of Master Ueshiba through the teachings of Takeda Sokaku, was founded under the name Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu by Minamoto Yoshimitsu (aka Shinra Saburo).
Kind regards,
Peter

If you read my post which you quoted, I said "several styles and offshoots" - I am well aware of the history of Aikijujutsu - and, since you brought it up, there is question as to the name Daito ryu aikijujutsu, it is thought that it wasn't used as the name of the style until around the time of S. Takeda, in fact the term aikijujutsu itself was apparently not applied to the style until then, and some think that Ueshiba actually applied the term. There are many stories about this stuff.

Paul 10-10-2000 07:06 AM

Agreement
 
It seems to me that we are all in agreement in that there is a very real difference between aikido and aiki-jujutsu and yet we are still arguing. I couldn't agree with you more Nick when you wrote;

"I'm not tyring to be disputive, but as an instructor for 18 years, I have to make distinctions and judgements about things like this. In fact, there are times when I see someone, an instructor or student, and I can say, for my own judgement - His/her Aikido is great - OR - His/her Aiki-taijutsu is great, but his/her actual Aikido isn't.

Ther are many subtle distinctions."

Yes, so you make a judgement on their aikido not on whether or not it is aikido, which is my main concern. Whether we like someone's aikido or not is of no real importance. Judgement of aikido is never objective, it will always be tainted with our own idea of the aikido ideal. Hence I would venture that is why we are all so careful in choosing an instructor to follow. Nobody stays long at a club were the aikido practiced clashes with our personality some where in side of us the aikido we practice must and indeed does touch our very soul over, be the ideal we strive to achieve.


Now for the tricky part. The history of what we now know to be Daito ryu aiki-jujutsu is surrounded in mystery and legend; Minamoto no yoshimitsu grandson of Seiwa, already armed with tegoi passed down by the gods, lived in the Daito palace where he disected criminal bodies. With his new found knowledge of bio-mechanics and the memory of watching a spider killing larger prey still fresh in his mind does he have his epiphany creating Daito ryu .............................................some famous descendants in Kai, a defeat, a move to Aizu. A little oshikiuchi, some Daito ryu,a sprinkle of Itto ryu keep secret for over two centuries and voila.
This is wonderful legend but it must remain a myth until it can be proven and unfortunately it can't.Tthere is still some question as to oshikiuchi's role in Daito ryu jujutsu evolvement. It probably had none. So here is were I am a little vaque but I believe the first records we have of Daito ryu jujustu date from the 17th century when Kunitsugu entered the service of Hoshina. And the first written record of Daito ryu aiki-jujutsu date from 1922 around the time Sokaku visited Ueshiba at the omoto kyo compound. Draw your own conclusions. For more info koryu.com and anything by Stanley(?) Prannin(?).

Regards Paul


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