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-   -   Poll: Does ukemi teach anything in aikido that a practitioner would otherwise never learn in aikido? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2775)

AikiWeb System 10-20-2002 01:01 AM

AikiWeb Poll for the week of October 20, 2002:

Does ukemi teach anything in aikido that a practitioner would otherwise never learn in aikido?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.

Chuck Clark 10-20-2002 01:28 AM

Sorry Jun, but I must be really dense this evening. I can't understand this question.

Can you expand on this a bit?

Thanks,

Bruce Baker 10-20-2002 09:06 AM

crash or .. to fly?
 
When I first tried to understand the basics for gymnastic maneuvers, growing up in a high school that encompassed grade 7-grade 12 with minimum requirements to pass gym with barest of gymnastic skills, the ratings of landings or performance were 'crash and burn', passable, and 'one who can fly'.

As much as we deny that in watching people learn aikido, there is this same rating of ability as we watch the performance of each practitioner, whether we are aware of it or not, the rating system is there in our minds.

The fact that you are nage, throwing, or devising techniques, or that there might not be ukemi, which in this particular incidence I believe to be the experience of accepting techniques as uke.

Most people assume that ukemi is the rolling and falling we associate with the dispersion of energy from recieving a technique, but even the methods of creating space, putting pain of submission holds upon uke, or the meerest acceptence of energy dispersal could be interpreted as ukemi, but then is that too trivial? Should we draw the line and separate the physical visual throws, rolls, and breakfalls from the etherial thoughts of absolute?

I guess the question is a bit vague in this sense.

Maybe I started this with limiting my rolling, tumbling, and physical ukemi to a reception of submission or having the angle of throws changed so I might walk instead of fall head over heels.

I would think that even with limitations, working withing health concerns, and doing practice within ones ability, there is,indeed, the need to experience the falls, rolls, feeling of energy exchange from throws to truly understand the basis of aikido's power.

Could we learn Aikido without ever taking a fall or breakfall or roll? Maybe. I don't think it would be Aikido any more, but a smaller piece of the martial arts puzzle than Aikido already is.

SeiserL 10-20-2002 12:39 PM

IMHO, ukemi really teaches the giving of one's self for the benefit of others. As a good uke, as a good training partner, we interrupt our own training and lend our body and energy. We attack/approach/enter knowing we will fail/fall, but do it to benefit others.

I also think that being on the recieving end of a technique/waza really gives a different and valuable perspective to the move.

And lets never forget the humility of being thrown by ohers much smaller and using very little effort. Sometimes, I just lay there and laugh.

Until again,

Lynn

akiy 10-20-2002 12:46 PM

Quote:

C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
Can you expand on this a bit?

Maybe a better way to phrase this question might have been, "Does ukemi teach anything in aikido that a practitioner would otherwise never learn in aikido outside of ukemi?"

In other words, does ukemi teach anything that being nage does not?

-- Jun

Bryan Webb 10-20-2002 02:42 PM

Hi All,

I prefer to think of uemki as trying to communicate with nage as long as possible.

Communicating while you are not necessarily 'in control'or leading, but being able to 'take control' and lead when the opportunity presents. Never really giving up until you have to.



regards

bryan webb

Chuck Clark 10-20-2002 04:25 PM

Quote:

Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
"Does ukemi teach anything in aikido that a practitioner would otherwise never learn in aikido outside of ukemi?"

In other words, does ukemi teach anything that being nage does not?

-- Jun

Simply put...Of course. It is the other half of the experience. By trying to understand both sides we have a better chance to really internalize more of each.

mike lee 10-21-2002 04:55 AM

speed, footwork
 
Generally speaking, kyu-level students in aikido have feet of lead.

When doing turning techniques, nage is in the center and uke is on the perimeter. As a result, uke must move faster.

Such training increases speed, agility, and stamina. In short, fast feet.

Ultimately, this enhances waza.

ian 10-21-2002 10:53 AM

All sounds a bit metaphysical to me. Not so long ago a ju-jitsu person (I presume - 'cos it wasn't anyone from our club!) put someone in a standing pin (a bit like reverse ikkyo - katagatame?), prior to smashing a bottle over the back of their neck. Though you may consider this a lesson in the difficulty of teaching martial arts to those who will use it inappropriately, the first thought is, why didn't they roll out of it. Ukemi can be a very useful way of escaping technique. In fact a prior ukemi is an excellent way of escaping many techniques.

I'd also say that ukemi teaches us that we can blend with something as big and hard as the earth.

ian

Deb Fisher 10-27-2002 04:35 PM

Bryan Webb wrote:

"Communicating while you are not necessarily 'in control'or leading, but being able to 'take control' and lead when the opportunity presents. Never really giving up until you have to. "

Yes - in aikido and in life. Learning how to take ukemi has taught me (has been teaching me) how to stay with a difficult situation, how not to give up. It's hard not to go slack when you're not winning. Staying taut and continuing to be a presence - communicating with nage (or any adversity) makes the outcome better.

No broken bones, no true helplessness.

Good question,

Deb

MaylandL 10-28-2002 01:32 AM

Quote:

C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
Simply put...Of course. It is the other half of the experience. By trying to understand both sides we have a better chance to really internalize more of each.

I wholeheartedly agree!

My current training focus is to "feel" the techniques more and not try to over analyse/think the technique as my senseis have often chided me about.

Feeling the dynamic of various techniques and exercises by being Uke and taking ukemi for my senseis has been huge benefit for me in understanding.

I had the wonderful privilege of taking Ukemi for a visiting Shihan during a seminar earlier in the year. His aikido was very dynamic and soft yet powerful and controlled. Still in the process of understanding and unpacking all the stuff from the seminar.

Happy training all :)

Bruce Baker 10-28-2002 07:29 AM

Yes.

We learn that our mistakes can be the cause of change. In effect, we look to disperse the energy with rolls, falls, or redirection, while becoming aware of what we can do to become the nage.

Something I call, "Get the hell out of the way, you are in the wrong place at the wrong time" when being uke and the inevitable technique is performed.

The awareness of turning the tables, making an attack less of an attack, or having the consciousness to slow down physical movements so the mind and body can react are all benefits of learning to give energy, and recieve energy.

So, indeed, ukemi can be as valuable as the offensive/defensive role as nage.

Young-In Park 10-28-2002 05:46 PM

Quote:

Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
In other words, does ukemi teach anything that being nage does not?

Although Ukemi teaches sensitivity, ability to redirect energy and how to control your own center, it is theoretically possible to learn such aspects without having to take Ukemi.

But one can not learn the mindset of an attacker and subsequently how to defend simply by being Nage.

Imagine being a network administrator. Who would you want to develop the security programs? A graduate of a computer class or a hacker?

YoungIn Park


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