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-   -   Oyogi vs. Henka waza (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2766)

aarjan 10-17-2002 02:36 AM

Oyogi vs. Henka waza
 
Can anyone tell me the difference between an Oyogi and a Henka waza? Another student asked my Sensei yesterday and he had his own interpretation, but was not sure about it. I offered to ask it here. So what makes a technique a Oyogi and when is it a henka waza?

Thanx in advance.

erikmenzel 10-17-2002 04:11 AM

Henka waza is what is commonly reffered to as a changed technique, in such a manner that i.e. starts with one technique but halfway one changes to another.

Jiyu oyogi is what is sometimes reffered to as personal technique or the application of that moment, i.e. doing what happens. This implies often that a student has extensively studied Kihon waza Kihon Gi and from the insight gained there comes to his own creative form of aikido. In that respect is jiyu oyogi the "form" that enbodies the idea of takemusu aiki.

Ta Kung 10-17-2002 08:40 AM

I always thought henka waza was a variation.

/Patrik

akiy 10-17-2002 08:54 AM

Here's an article by Hiroshi Ikeda sensei on Bu Jin Design's website that talks about his thoughts on the two:

http://www.bujindesign.com/newslette...training.shtml

-- Jun

G DiPierro 10-17-2002 11:06 AM

Quote:

Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Here's an article by Hiroshi Ikeda sensei on Bu Jin Design's website that talks about his thoughts on the two:

Interesting article, thanks for posting it. I'm going to have to figure out how to do that ikkyo to shihonage henkawaza sometime. My question is that when referring to ouyouwaza, does Ikeda S. mean doing whatever is necessary to execute a given technique, ie, the one demonstrated, or rather doing any technique neccesary to throw a particular uke. In many Federation dojos, the first one is expected and the second is often frowned upon, but I would say that the reverse is true at the dojo at which I am practicing now.

akiy 10-17-2002 11:35 AM

Hi Giancarlo,

Although I can't speak for Ikeda sensei, since I helped translate that article from Japanese to English, I'll add my own thoughts here.

I believe ouyouwaza could very well include henkawaza in that in order to make a technique "effective," the basic form of the technique may have to be changed. This may mean that ikkyo may turn into an ikkyo variation or that ikkyo may turn into shihonage.

In terms of practice, I believe it depends on the terms of practice. Like you said, some folks frown upon changing the technique one iota from what was shown. Others would rather see nage's ability to adapt to a certain situation to effectively pull off a technique whether it's exactly what's shown at that time or not. From when I train with Ikeda sensei, I believe he leans a lot more towards the latter than the former.

As far as ikkyo to shihonage goes, one way to do this would be to to the initial kuzushi for ikkyo omote but make it "shallow" to make uke "bounce" back up. You can then use this bounce to go under uke's arm to do shihonage, usually omote as well...

Regards,

-- Jun

shihonage 10-17-2002 02:40 PM

Isn't there a DVD now available on www.aiki.com called "OYO HENKA" by Saotome Sensei ?

aarjan 10-18-2002 01:48 AM

First, thanx for all your replies and the information.

Last night my Sensei and me chatted about it a little more, but I am still a little confused.

My Sensei told me that Tamura Sensei calls "Gokyo" Oyogi and "Ude kime nage" Henka waza. Given the information can anyone explain this?

Further more, Jun or someone else: what would be the translation of both terms?

Thanx again

Duarh 10-18-2002 03:53 AM

Quote:

Aarjan Meirink (aarjan) wrote:
My Sensei told me that Tamura Sensei calls "Gokyo" Oyogi and "Ude kime nage" Henka waza. Given the information can anyone explain this?

Well, the udekimenage part could be due to the fact that it's easily interchangeable with shihonage (and prolly other techniques, though I'm not experienced enough to tell) depending on how your partner reacts to your movements. I don't think my sensei uses the particular term (henka waza) to refer to it, but he does emphasize the closeness of the ' opening positions' of both techniques

'henka', translated, means 'change', that' s all i know :)

Peter Goldsbury 10-18-2002 07:02 PM

This is another example of common Japanese terms being given a specialized meanng.

HEN-KA (変化) basically mean a change in state or circumstances, whereas OU-YOU (応用) means an application of something to a different situation. For example, in linguistics HEN-KA refers to declension or conjugation of nouns and verbs, whereas OUYOU GENGO-GAKU is usually translated as Applied Linguistics, i.e., the application of linguistics to a practical situation like teaching. 科学"I新'm識の産業--竭閧ヨの応用: 'kagakuteki shinchishiki no sangyou mondai e no ouyou' means the application of new scientific knowledge to industrial problems.

If you apply this to aikido, OUYOU-WAZA is the application of the same technique to a different situation, whereas HENKA-WAZA is changing from one technique to another completely different technique. However, I have found that different teachers apply this distinction differently.

Best regards,

G DiPierro 10-18-2002 09:45 PM

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
OUYOU GENGO-GAKU is usually translated as Applied Linguistics, i.e., the application of linguistics to a practical situation like teaching.

This would be the "put to practical use" translation. But when is Aikido is ever put to practical use? Speaking strictly of the physical techniques, I would say hardly ever, and I'm not sure that a situation such as a real attack in the streets is what is meant by the term ouyouwaza anyway. Aikido principles, however, are often applied both within and without the dojo. I consider this to be a form of technique (waza) in itself, and while I had never given this a name before, ouyouwaza might actually be the correct term.

Peter Goldsbury 10-19-2002 12:11 AM

Quote:

Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
This would be the "put to practical use" translation. But when is Aikido is ever put to practical use? Speaking strictly of the physical techniques, I would say hardly ever, and I'm not sure that a situation such as a real attack in the streets is what is meant by the term ouyouwaza anyway. Aikido principles, however, are often applied both within and without the dojo. I consider this to be a form of technique (waza) in itself, and while I had never given this a name before, ouyouwaza might actually be the correct term.

I think you read more into the analogy than was intended. OUYOU is the application of something to a different situation. OUYOU GENGO GAKU happens to be the accepted Japanese term for Applied Linguistics. The fact that the application is to something practical is another matter. In general Japanese the difference between HENKA and OUYOU is very clear. What is less clear is the application of these general concepts to something specialized like aikido.

However, no teacher of mine has ever understood OUYOU WAZA to mean aikido put to practical application (in the street). The present Doshu has recently published two books, with the title of 規"ヘ合気"ケ (Kihan Aikido). The first volume is entitled 基--{偏 (kihon-hen) the second is called 応用編 (ouyou-hen). The difference Doshu is making is between basic techniques and what he calls 'applied' techniques. Of course, both concern techniques in the dojo.

Yours sincerely,

G DiPierro 10-19-2002 09:04 AM

Quote:

Peter Goldsbury wrote:
I think you read more into the analogy than was intended. OUYOU is the application of something to a different situation.

For some reason, the characters in your post show up as jibberish, but the translation I found for ouyou (ou = apply, you = utilize) was "application, put to practical use." Are saying that this is the usage in general Japanese but not in Aikido?
Quote:

However, no teacher of mine has ever understood OUYOU WAZA to mean aikido put to practical application (in the street).
Right, I was implying that this would be a very limited definition that would not make much sense. OTOH, I thought the term could legitimately be used for the more general application of Aikido principles in the dojo and in everday life. Whether it is actually used that way is a different question.
Quote:

The present Doshu has recently published two books, with the title of 規"ヘ合気"ケ (Kihan Aikido). The first volume is entitled 基--{偏 (kihon-hen) the second is called 応用編 (ouyou-hen). The difference Doshu is making is between basic techniques and what he calls 'applied' techniques.
Not having seen the books, I have no idea which techniques would be considered basic and which would be considered applied, so it's hard to tell what is meant by this distinction here.

erikmenzel 10-19-2002 10:07 AM

I leave nitpicking over the exact meaning of the words jiyu oyogi and henka waza at the hands of other people.

The understanding I, as non-japanese, have of both concepts within Aikido was taught to me by my teacher and further developed in the talks with 4 pupils of o'sensei.

Having had the advantage both attending several seminars by Tamuara Shihan and speaking with Tamura Shihan peronally I might be able to shed some light on the confusion Aarjan experiences over the concepts.

Two things are very important to realize:

1)Tamura Shihan does not do any Kihon Waza in his seminars. He sometimes names the technique and for emphasising that this is not Kihon Waza he sometimes adds that this is oyo waza, meaning that the "form" he showed and people are invited to find and practice is oyo waza. In other occasions Tamura Shihan showed some Henka waza, but only named the last technique. I guess he expected everybody to know, have noticed and been aware of the beginning technique anyway.

2) Tamura Shihan gives his seminars in French. This means that the explanations by Tamura Shihan are translated into Dutch (in the Netherlands). The quality of the translation depends not only on the language skills of the translator but also on the understanding of the subject itself. Although I must say that the usual translator (Tessa Brouwer) does a fairly decent job at this, it is especially at these more difficult concepts that are not part of the common knowledge at a lot of the aikidoclubs in the Netherlands that I cannot escape the feeling that the translation provided in meaning and value differs from the original explanation Tamura Shihan gave.

At a party after a seminar in Compeigne (in France) I had the opportunity to speak with Tamura Shihan about the normal progress and development within Aikido. As I understood it he explained to me that in Aikido one starts with training Kihon Waza Kihon Gi to built a strong foundation and to study all the details of every technique. From this foundation the student is to develop to a personal creative adaptation. This is what he referd to as jiyu oyogi. He explained that one of the goals is to reach a personal adaptive and creative form which enbodies the idea of takemusu aiki.

As a last note: I have been told by Henry Kono sensei and Alan Ruddock sensei that o'sensei did not actually teach in the way as people think of teaching aikido nowerdays. The development into a "teaching system" was due to the work of his son and the first generation students that went into the world to spread aikido. With that respect we are in my personal view often creating unnecessary problems, or at least problems that in o'sensei's time simply didnot exist.

Peter Goldsbury 10-19-2002 06:31 PM

Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote: "For some reason, the characters in your post show up as jibberish, but the translation I found for ouyou (ou = apply, you = utilize) was "application, put to practical use." Are saying that this is the usage in general Japanese but not in Aikido?"

PAG. In many cases it does indeed mean 'put to practical use', but the term has a slightly wider meaning. In the Kojien monolingual Japanese dictionary,, the meaning is given as 原理や'm識を実際"Iな--柄にあてはめて利用すること。I am sorry that your computer cannot depict the kanji. The above sentence reads, "Genri ya chishiki wo jissaitekina kotogara ni atehamete riyou suru koto." and means, "To use a principle or knowledge by applying it to real, i.e., practical, circumstances". In the statement, 上に述べたこと'jにも女にも応用できる, Ue ni nobetakoto wa otoko nimo onna nimo ouyou dekiru. "What I said above applies to men as well as to women", the 'ouyou' here is not quite the same as a practical application of a principle or knowledge.

Why is this not nit-picking, as someone has suggested? Because of the central role which Japanese plays in aikido. The distinction is Japanese in words and concept and so it makes good sense to look at how the distinction is actually used in everyday Japanese. In aikido the distinction is actually quite artificial and tends to be made differently by different teachers. And the distinction can be more trouble than it is worth. It is usually presented as one between 'kihon waza' (basic techniques) and 'ouyou waza' (applied techniques), but both types of waza are "practical applications of principles or knowledge": either way, you put your uke on the ground or throw him/her.

To take a concrete example, the technique 1-kyou usually ends with uke on the mat in an elbow pin. As taught from shoumen-uchi, this would be classed as 'kihon waza'. But a recognised variation is (1) to throw uke after the initial unbalancing, with the elbow as the pivot and an atemi to the face. There is no name for this technique, by the way. Another recognised technique from 1-kyou is (2) to move under uke's arm, turn and throw, as in shihonage.

Now which is 'ouyou' waza and which is 'henka' waza? Some would say that Example (2) is a henka waza because it is a clear move from 1-kyou to shiho-nage. But what about example (1)? Others would say that it is LIKE a technique which some teachers, though not all, call udekiminage. If so, for these teachers it would be henka-waza, as in Example (2). But, as I said, there is no established name for the technique. On the other hand, it would certainly qualify as an application (ouyou) of 1-kyou. But my point is that the two examples are also applications of 1-kyou.

So for what it is worth, the distinction is threefold: (1) 'kihon' waza (basic techniques) which can become (2) 'ouyou' waza, when applied in different circumstances. If these different circumstances turn out to allow a different technique, the technique becomes (3) 'henka' waza.

Actually, what I did in this post would be a clear case of 'ouyou' in Japanese: taking a specific item of knowledge about Japanese and applying it ('ouyou suru') to the specific case of aikido.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury 10-19-2002 07:01 PM

Erik Jurrien Knoops wrote:

"At a party after a seminar in Compeigne (in France) I had the opportunity to speak with Tamura Shihan about the normal progress and development within Aikido. As I understood it he explained to me that in Aikido one starts with training Kihon Waza Kihon Gi to built a strong foundation and to study all the details of every technique. From this foundation the student is to develop to a personal creative adaptation. This is what he referd to as jiyu oyogi. He explained that one of the goals is to reach a personal adaptive and creative form which enbodies the idea of takemusu aiki."

In my opinion, Mr Knoops has given another, very important, example of the 'kihon' vs. 'ouyou' distinction, which is a little different from the distinction between 'kihon waza' and 'ouyou waza' in a typical aikido class. In my opinion, this illustrates the breadth of the concept in Japanese.

Chiba Sensei once explained this personal development in terms of SHU - HA - RI. Here, the 'ouyou' is the adaptation of the knowledge & principles gained from basic training to one's own physical and spiritual circumstances. Notice, the term comes with 'jiyu': 'free', in the sense that you yourself do it at your own pace and in your own time: others cannot do it for you. Success will depend on how well one has mastered the earlier stage of 'kihon' training.

Best regards,

G DiPierro 10-20-2002 09:56 AM

Quote:

Erik Jurrien Knoops wrote:
As I understood it he explained to me that in Aikido one starts with training Kihon Waza Kihon Gi to built a strong foundation and to study all the details of every technique. From this foundation the student is to develop to a personal creative adaptation. This is what he referd to as jiyu oyogi.

"Kihon waza" appears to be written the same as "kihon gi" except the first uses the kun reading of waza, meaning technique, while the second uses the ON reading, meaning skill. I'm don't know the full implications of each reading, but based on the translations I used in the last sentence, ouyougi makes a lot of sense as "application of skill," though ouyouwaza makes less sense as "application of technique." As I see it, technique is something that is always applied, and I would tend to think of it, especially in the sense implied by waza, as being defined as a "form or manner in which skill is applied."

"Jiyu ouyougi," or the "the application of skill according to one's own style," is a concept that is specifically mentioned in the USAF as expected to begin developing in students at around the level of sandan. As Peter indicated, this also corresponds to the the HA stage in the traditional SHU-HA-RI structure of martial arts instruction. As for ouyouwaza, I'm starting to get the feeling that Peter may be simply using it to mean "variation."
Quote:

Peter Goldsbury wrote:
So for what it is worth, the distinction is threefold: (1) 'kihon' waza (basic techniques) which can become (2) 'ouyou' waza, when applied in different circumstances. If these different circumstances turn out to allow a different technique, the technique becomes (3) 'henka' waza.

Tsuki iriminage omotewaza is formally done with an irimi-tenkai entry, a tenkai back to the original direction, and then a scooping of uke's neck with the bicep. A common variation of this technique is entering directly, sliding the hand up the chest until the palm is under the neck, and then pushing the head up and back. The technique is still tsuki iriminage, but it is applied in a diffent manner. Would you call this example "ouyouwaza?"

Peter Goldsbury 10-20-2002 10:23 AM

Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote: "Kihon waza" appears to be written the same as "kihon gi" except the first uses the kun reading of waza, meaning technique, while the second uses the ON reading, meaning skill. I'm don't know the full implications of each reading, but based on the translations I used in the last sentence, ouyougi makes a lot of sense as "application of skill," though ouyouwaza makes less sense as "application of technique." As I see it, technique is something that is always applied, and I would tend to think of it, especially in the sense implied by waza, as being defined as a "form or manner in which skill is applied."

PAG. I think there is a fundamental difference in meaning between the ON reading/meaning and the kun meaning/reading, but I will not argue it at length in this thread. If you contact me by my private e-mail address, I will discuss it further.

"Jiyu ouyougi," or the "the application of skill according to one's own style," is a concept that is specifically mentioned in the USAF as expected to begin developing in students at around the level of sandan. As Peter indicated, this also corresponds to the the HA stage in the traditional SHU-HA-RI structure of martial arts instruction. As for ouyouwaza, I'm starting to get the feeling that Peter may be simply using it to mean "variation."

Tsuki iriminage omotewaza is formally done with an irimi-tenkai entry, a tenkai back to the original direction, and then a scooping of uke's neck with the bicep. A common variation of this technique is entering directly, sliding the hand up the chest until the palm is under the neck, and then pushing the head up and back. The technique is still tsuki iriminage, but it is applied in a diffent manner. Would you call this example "ouyouwaza?"

PAG. No. Both are kihon waza. If you wish to have further discussion, please e-mail me privately.

Best regards,


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