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Suru 10-08-2002 07:25 PM

Turning Out of Shihonage
 
Almost every time I train with a beginner, they spin just before I can throw them in shihonage. I expect a real attacker to most probably act like an aikido beginner, so I'm a bit concerned about using this technique on the street. Shihonage is one of the cornerstones of aikido, so I know there must be a way to keep uke from spinning. Does anyone have advice for me?

Drew

jaxonbrown 10-08-2002 07:57 PM

i always had that problem too

you must stay low and crank that arm enough so the other arm stays away from you

here's an example:

http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Equid/Aiki/Mo...ring/Shiho.mov

daedalus 10-08-2002 08:00 PM

I'm going to preface what I'm going to say with "ask sensei." That being said....

Make sure uke doesn't have his/her balance when applying the technique.

Or...Use atemi full force. Cause horrible elbow pain. Don't be afraid to dislocate the elbow in the throw. Don't be afraid to bounce uke's head on the mat hard, causing a brain hemmorage. Plow your shoulder into his/her face when throwing.

Second paragraph sound a bit extreme? This is why ukes cooperate. Try and keep uke's arm overextended. If beginners don't cooperate, ask your teacher or explain to them yourself why cooperation is a good idea.

When I was a beginner, I always turned out of the standing kotegaeshi pin. Nage asked sensei about it, and he...demonstrated why turning over was a good idea. Worked for me, and it might work for them.

Peter Goldsbury 10-08-2002 08:45 PM

Quote:

Jaxon Brown (jaxonbrown) wrote:
i always had that problem too

you must stay low and crank that arm enough so the other arm stays away from you

here's an example:

http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Equid/Aiki/Mo...ring/Shiho.mov

Yes. Notice how Simon turns sharply after spining his uke and throws him in the reverse direction (with hands no higher than forehead). The turn is actually optional. It is much more severe on uke, but you could continue in a straight line.

Oh and with beginners, ukemi from shihonage is somnething you actually have to teach, usually by doing it yourself as instructor. It is not something they should be left to pick up for themselves after having learned ushiro ukemi.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings 10-08-2002 09:23 PM

The mistake that I see most often is nage giving nage his center back during the pivot.

My instructor has a couple of things that he does incredibly well. Shihonage is one of them.

If we really get in a rut, he has us lay the back of our inside wrist across our forehead and the back of the outside wrist across the pulse area of the inside wrist. The wrists should be "cupped" around your forehead.

It's a crutch, but when my shihonage gets to really sucking, I retreat to it till I get the groove back.

Best Regards,

opherdonchin 10-08-2002 10:32 PM

I've sort of seen two schools of thought on this that are almost entirely opposite.

The first holds that before you even begin doing the shihonage you should have uke's elbow and wrist cranked enough so that their hips are thrust forward and they are up on their toes. Make sure they stay like this as you pass under the arm and, trust me, they won't be going anywhere. I see that a lot in ASU and AiKiKai dojos.

The other version (more 'seidokan') is best understood by letting uke grab your finger instead of your wrist. Now try to do shihonage without ripping your own finger off. You'll find that to do it you must find a path that brings uke's hand to their shoulder without giving them a lot of excuses to pull on your finger or twist around. This involves a very light touch.

Of course, one would hope that when you practice shihonage with beginners you go quite slowly, giving them ample time to think about their options and do all kinds of crazy things. "On the street" (wherever that is), one suspects that both you and your 'partner' will be moving at a more realistic pace.

PhilJ 10-08-2002 11:02 PM

I've seen exactly what Opher mentioned above. In Seidokan, the tendency is to let the arm go where it wants to; this way, uke doesn't feel any chances to resist. This is my favorite manner to do shiho.

When nage "must" grab uke, the only words I say are "keep the slack out of uke's arm".

Creature_of_the_id 10-09-2002 02:09 AM

get low and make sure it is not comfortable for your partner. make sure you can see your own hands at all times :)

oh.. and ask your sensei to show you the ukemi from it. Learning how to cooperate in techniques like this means that no one gets hurt and the technique can be practiced as if done at full energy.

erikmenzel 10-09-2002 02:52 AM

Quote:

Goldsbury Peter (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
Yes. Notice how Simon turns sharply after spining his uke and throws him in the reverse direction (with hands no higher than forehead). The turn is actually optional. It is much more severe on uke, but you could continue in a straight line.

Well,

most obvious to me is how Simon is janking his uke into the right position.Would not want to try that with an uke that is realy alive and awake.

Genex 10-09-2002 04:09 AM

Three words
 
Extention, extention, extention.

If you've got your Uke extended with your elbow up under his how is he going anywhere?

then step through (omote) or tenkan (ura) and cut down, instant mat splat. beleive it or not shihonage is really hard to get out of when done properly.

as for Iriminage. OY! dont get me started. its so damn hard!

still i can do it but man its damn akward.

hehehe

otama shimini!

pete

Peter Goldsbury 10-09-2002 06:08 AM

Quote:

Erik Jurrien Knoops (erikknoops) wrote:
Well,

most obvious to me is how Simon is janking his uke into the right position.Would not want to try that with an uke that is realy alive and awake.

Well, to each his / her own. 'Janking' would not be the word I would use to describe Simon's movement, but perhaps I am biassed: years ago we trained in the UK under the same teacher (who now teaches in San Diego,). And if it's the uke I think it is, he is usually neither dead or asleep during practice, at least when he takes ukemi for me.

I think Kevin Price's advice is very sound. Beginners really need to be taught how to take correct ukemi from shihonage, which, actually, can be a lethal technique. If you look at an article written by Fumio Shishida, published a few years ago in Aikido Journal when it was still Aiki News, most of the fatal accidents in aikido have been caused from shiho nage.

So, if a beginner 'escapes' from shihonage by turning out of the technique, it is no big deal. I think uke and tori need to be taught to cooperate with each other to the absolute maximum, at least in the early stages.

Best regards,

andrew 10-09-2002 06:37 AM

Re: Turning Out of Shihonage
 
Quote:

Drew Gardner (Suru) wrote:
Shihonage is one of the cornerstones of aikido, so I know there must be a way to keep uke from spinning. Does anyone have advice for me?

Drew

Shihonage is considered one of the cornerstones of aikido because there's so much involved in doing it properly. There is a way to stop uke from spinning, and you'll eventually find it in training. There's no magic formula- it's complex enough that a verbal explanation just won't cut it for you.

The thing you can do at this stage, though, is ask these guys spinning out to just take the ukemi. Eventually you'll have it figured out to the point that when they try spinning out, they'll be unable to. I hope.

Anyhow, I wouldn't think shihonage should be one of the first techniques you consider using "on the street."

andrew

L. Camejo 10-09-2002 07:00 AM

Re: Three words
 
Quote:

Peter Lovatt (Genex) wrote:
Extention, extention, extention.

If you've got your Uke extended with your elbow up under his how is he going anywhere?

then step through (omote) or tenkan (ura) and cut down, instant mat splat. beleive it or not shihonage is really hard to get out of when done properly.

This is how we tend to do shi o nage (tenkai kotegaeshi) in our dojo. As long as tori keeps uke's arm and shoulder directly on top of his own shoulder and visualises a pivoting sword cut to someone behind, it is very hard to escape.

If done properly, attempting to turn out will actually be more painful, as your own shoulder traps uke's shoulder, locking it in the midst of the turn. While training in Aikikai, I learnt that if tori keeps his outer elbow as low as possible it allows for even more control of the technique.

Alternatively, application of yonkyo throughout the shi ho nage makes it almost effortless and irresistible. Of course, if uke still turns out it only places him/her in the perfect position for an easy kotegaeshi :)

My 2 cents.

L.C.:ai::ki:

MikeE 10-09-2002 08:39 AM

In our dojos we stress taking uke's balance from the first movement and keeping it throughout the entire waza. An uke that has no balance can't spin out of anything.

Bruce Baker 10-09-2002 10:14 AM

Details of shihonage ...
 
All right then ... if ain't comfortable get comfortable.

You cannot do shihonage without taking balance and causeing your uke to move.

If just use your hands, it might work in practice but not against a resistant partner. If you use your body, it might work, but if you leave slack in your partners arm, it will provide opportunity to escape.

So maybe it is time to pick up your bokken and try that once again. If you do not have a bokken, an overhead stike with both hands will be sufficient. Now, raise those hands, take a short step in as you bring them down. That is the opposite of what you will do in raising your partners arm in shihonage.

The detail raising is to take their balance in moving forward in the step as you raise your hands, learn to meet forearm to forearm so your body does the work and not your hands or arms, and to learn how to get the twist motion that creates the pain to make the uke complient enough to follow you while their own absorbtion of your technique allow them to feel minimum pain.

With very supple loose ukes I use the old hair pull twist to take out the slack at the beginning of the technique.

What is the hair pull technique?

It is something that is practiced in Wally Jay Jujitsu as a wrist warm up. Most Aikido teachers use it to deflect a bokken strike, or use it for jo practice to roll off a jo strike. The wrist simply allow the hand to bend downward as if you had a hand full of hair, then you roll the wrist upwards as if you were tearing out a handfull of hair. Not a very pretty picture or thought, but it does stick out in my mind as a realistic point of reference.

Anyway, this rolling of the hand and wrist with forearm to forearm is one of the key locking movements that make the rest of shihonage a valid technique.

Whether you let your partner walk into shihonage, or take the balance from a static position, you have to use "Extension, Extension, extension," as Peter Lovatt puts it ... but encourage your uke by taking out all the slack to harmonize with your next movement, which will produce pain, as you "raise the bokken" and take out the slack. If you have left slack, or not encourage uke to follow you, then you might as well start over.

So, you have taken the balance with extension by virtue of your step forward, and you have learned to use the hair pull twist as you raise the bokken with forearm to forearm causing extentsion using your body instead of your upper body strength or arm strength, now what?

Time to send the energy in the direction you need to go. Uke should be dancing on his or her toes with no real striking options, and any kick will result in severe pain, but you aren't waiting for that chance to happen, you are secure with the bokken at your forehead as you turn back into the uke and redirect the force.

But how far back into the uke did you turn? Did turn so far that you are pulling the uke towards you, or maybe you didn't turn enough and you have let your hand slip over your shoulder to relieve the pressure? In either case, even if you are doing it wrong, you will eventually get it with practice.

Pay attention, there is a two way motion coming up for the throw. Yep, it is not just the wrist being twisted into the arm to apply submission as it is brought down, but you should be stepping forward to affect the use of body movement in the same way you first practiced the first strike with the small step.

We have begun with the bokken being raised, and being lowered in the same manner as first saburi, only with a pivot added as we raise to the front as we step in, pivot, and strike to the rear. Too simple?

It is always simple in the if you pay attention to the details that take out the slack, make use of motion, and apply your practice to application.

Take a few minutes to find out what I mean about the three wrist warmup exercises Professor Wally Jay uses. He admits that he has taken movements from other arts, including aikido, that work, and these three warmups are found in your weapons practice also, if you are paying attention, that is.

Paul Smith 10-09-2002 10:46 AM

Toyoda Sensei's emphasis was on maintaining the extension of uke's arm, primarily by ensuring uke's arm "scraped" across nage's back on the way through the "pivot cut" to bring uke's hand into position at their shoulder. It "scrapes across the back" if nage bows, and maintains this bow, after entering through (for omote) or after beginning soto-pivot (for ura). Analogy: "look at the penny on the floor" as you pivot.

Bruce Baker 10-09-2002 11:39 AM

I know there are some typo's in my previous post, but my van finally got the new engine in it, so I ran off.

Yeah, the coin rolling past is a good one, but remember to not raise your hands above your forehead, or out to the side as you pivot to the outside, rubbing your forehead above the eyebrows is a good reference for where you want to be.

What I wanted to get into was that I had modified my practice to a kneeling submission, because of my illness, and it brought to mind how many people could refrain from using weapons, punching and kicking to detain perpetrators by a simple shihonage to their knees?

I must modify my practice, but in doing so, I find ever more validity for the variations of techniques, the use of joint locks for restraint, and little to no reason to affect the types of striking weapons most law enforcement employs ... batons, sticks, and the like.

Play dumb, if you are having a hard time doing a technique, until enough of the details are exposed so that your mind is clear on what parameters must be met to do a technique properly. Once you have the knowledge, even if it takes a life time to master it, at least you will know how to help yourself, or others should they ask?

Good practice to you.

Aristeia 10-09-2002 03:15 PM

Re: Re: Turning Out of Shihonage
 
Quote:

Andrew O Byrne (andrew) wrote:
Shihonage is considered one of the cornerstones of aikido because there's so much involved in doing it properly. There is a way to stop uke from spinning, and you'll eventually find it in training. There's no magic formula- it's complex enough that a verbal explanation just won't cut it for you.

The thing you can do at this stage, though, is ask these guys spinning out to just take the ukemi. Eventually you'll have it figured out to the point that when they try spinning out, they'll be unable to. I hope.

andrew

I'm gonna have to disagree with that. I firmly believe you should NEVER tell uke to "just take the ukemi". Uke is never wrong, they have two simple jobs, attack, and recover. Sure you can tell them to just take the ukemi for now and eventually it will seem like you have got the technique sussed to stop them spinning out. But more likely rather than having trained yourself to do the technique correctly, you've trained uke to just fall.

Beginners offer a great opportunity to train with people that have no preconceived notion of how they should be moving. They're not "playing the role". Which is great. Having said that many beginners also don't move in a way I would describe as natural. It all boils down to this - never tell uke "just fall like this" without explaining to them (or showing them) why that is the best and safest thing to do. If you can't figure out how to do that, then you need to be dealing with whatever movement they're giving you. As people advance in experience this is invaluable to get a better insight into techniques and how to adapt them when things don't go as expected. For juniors, as someone else said, they need to call their sensei over to explain to both partners a)how to stop uke moving like that and b) why uke probably doesn't want to move like that.
Quote:

Andrew O Byrne (andrew) wrote:
Anyhow, I wouldn't think shihonage should be one of the first techniques you consider using "on the street."

andrew

Why on earth not. It had better be. Ikkyo, irimi nage, shiho nage. These are the first techniques we learn. They are the cornerstone most of us fall back on in those moments when we're no longer thinking about technique but just acting. Watch anyone start jiyu waza and more often than not their first response to shomen is irimi nage, their first response to yokomen is shiho (or variation thereof).

The point being that these are the techniques many people are most likely to default to in an actual combat situation. It won't be a matter of which technique you are considering, it will be a matter of which technique you find yourself in the middle of. So they'd better be useful. I think shiho is good in this instance because a) It is so easy to make it so much nastier than it is in the dojo (e.g. breaking the arm over the shoulder), b)it's easy to flow from shiho into other techniques if uke isn't moving as you'd hoped (irimi, juji, repo....)

Roy Dean 10-09-2002 04:46 PM

Spinning out of Shihonage is a common and intuitive reversal. Yield to their resistance by moving into another technique. All techniques can be reversed, so use their beginner's intuition to hone your own spontaneity and flow.

Roy Dean

Adman 10-10-2002 09:37 AM

Hello everyone! My first post here, I think.

Hmmm... I'll just stick to some key points to prevent the "spin out" part.

Okay, let's just get to the position of the technique just before nage raises their hands up. Nage and uke are, in effect ,"mirror" images of each other, with arms extended out in front. At this point, nage moves forward, towards uke's hand as it's being raised (Mr. Baker's post mentions this, but I thought I'd repeat it). *Then* pivots to complete the throw. Uke doesn't spin out because nage moves forward while keeping uke's hand/arm in the same relative position... that is ... extended. It doesn't occur to uke that they could spin out, because they can't.

Uke is able to spin out when nage stays "mirrored" and pivots to complete the throw without moving forward. Since uke is still a "reflection" of nage, they will naturally pivot in the same manner, especially when nage insists on putting uke's elbow in a vulnerable position.

Yep, it's common. But it can be remedied without reversing the technique, yanking (ouch! don't yank!), moving faster, cutting harder, etc.

Adam

Don_Modesto 10-10-2002 09:59 AM

Quote:

Goldsbury Peter (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
1) The turn is actually optional. It is much more severe on uke, but you could continue in a straight line.

2) Oh and with beginners, ukemi from shihonage is somnething you actually have to teach, usually by doing it yourself as instructor. It is not something they should be left to pick up for themselves after having learned ushiro ukemi.

Best regards,

____________________

1) Nasty, that. I think that's what Shioda describes in his book as "a variation", ie, cranking the arm on the shoulder and ripping 1-3 major joints.

2) Yes. But before teaching them, they are so useful to the more advanced as reminders that often, modesty is but honesty.

I've been working pretty intesively with a couple of beginners of late, and it's remarkable how quickly they pick up on how to make NAGE look good. One moment they confound your technique and the next they make you look golden. Of course, one attempts to apply the technique under these rarified conditions ideally, that is, without recourse to the catalogue of options offered so insightfull--and ironically--by Mr. Lapins.

daedalus 10-10-2002 10:34 AM

*MR.* Lapins? Wow! I feel like a respectable citizen again! Either that or I'm back in high school and the dean has me in his office...<shudder>

Tuesday night, a beginner in class didn't believe that she was really "doing" the technique because it was so easy. I agreed to attack hard with resistance if she would throw hard and quickly. What resulted was her doing a beautiful shionage that didn't quite get to my shoulder (uh oh!), and me doing a last-minute shionage breakfall. She said that I had just fallen for her to make her look good. I corrected her, letting her know that I fell for my elbow. It REALLY wanted me to go over. ;^)

The goal is to be able to do a throw with no extra help from extreme pain or fear of joint dislocation, and we should always strive for this. But if we haven't reached that point, don't be discouraged. It will still "work," it just makes uke's fall more...interesting.

G DiPierro 10-10-2002 03:32 PM

I agree with Michael Fooks about not telling beginners to change their ukemi when a technique isn't working. Usually, I find that it is a much better to work on changing my own technique to adapt to the difficulty. In fact, not too long ago I had a beginner spinning out of shihonage, and after trying several changes to my technique, I finally figured out the key to preventing it. However, this was an isolated case, and if Drew is having this problem "almost every time" he practices with beginners then I suspect there is a deeper problem that he needs to work on in his technique.

OTOH, there are aspects of ukemi specific to techniques that should be taught, and for shihonage the principle of keeping the hand close to one's shoulder is often one that comes up for newer students. However, this point is solely for the uke's own protection and not to cover up deficiencies in nage's technique.

Aristeia 10-10-2002 04:44 PM

Quote:

Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
OTOH, there are aspects of ukemi specific to techniques that should be taught, and for shihonage the principle of keeping the hand close to one's shoulder is often one that comes up for newer students. However, this point is solely for the uke's own protection and not to cover up deficiencies in nage's technique.

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with telling uke to move a specific way, so long as you've got a good compelling reason why it is in *their interests* to move that way, not yours (in this case avoiding a shoulder dislocation)

opherdonchin 10-10-2002 04:47 PM

I try to separate the two processes. First, I try to concentrate on my own technique and figure out a way to execute what the instructor demonstrated in a way that feels both effective and safe. IF I manage to suceed in that, then it may be an appropriate time to correct a beginners uke. Still, that may just because I'm selfish.


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