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-   -   Poll: Do you use vocalized kiai regularly in your aikido practice? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2703)

AikiWeb System 10-06-2002 01:01 AM

AikiWeb Poll for the week of October 6, 2002:

Do you use vocalized kiai regularly in your aikido practice?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes, and I practice Iwama aikido
  • Yes, and I do not practice Iwama aikido
  • No
Here are the current results.

Mr. P 10-09-2002 03:27 AM

Just to say...
 
A post just to say I think the thread is incomplete :rolleyes: . It may be better this way ;) ...

Do you use vocalized kia´ regularly in your aikido practice ?

- I don't do a´kido (I forgot where I put my keikogi :blush: )
- Yes, and I practice Iwama a´kido :cool:
- Yes, and I do not practice Iwama a´kido :disgust:
- Yes, but only when I'm launched over 50m., at the other side of the room :freaky:
- Yes, but only when I'm brutally Sankyo-ed :eek:
- Perhaps, I can't remember all of my a´kido sessions because I'm usually knocked down :dead: before it ends
- Perhaps, if you consider "Singing in the rain" is a vocalized kia´ :D
- No


So, is there news votes now :p ?!

erikmenzel 10-09-2002 03:57 AM

And the winner of the Mister Smilies-Fettish award 2002 is......

Mr. P 10-09-2002 05:39 AM

... is me ?!

Wow :cool: !! Then, I wish to thank my mom, my manager, and all my fans...

Thanks for all :D !!

Bruce Baker 10-09-2002 10:14 AM

Seriously though ... most people are unabable to deal with a real kiai, even if it is for your own personal bolstering of getting the beginning effect of sound, movement, awareness for doing techniques. In the normal situations, kiai's are only used in practice where each of the participants are at equal level, or at least training at a safe level, and they totally trust each other not to go so far as to have serious injury, maybe just a bump or minor bruise, or two.

Funny you should bring this up? I have a condition where I can't get enough blood through my liver, which is one cause of dizzyness, and went two rounds of practice with jo where I was beginning to feel the dizzyness, so I used my most basic grunting kiai. My teacher knows how I push myself beyond what I should, so when he saw me pushing myself, he knew it was time to barge in so I could sit, not an uncommon occurance, but he had this big cheshire cat grin as he asked to barge in? I guess he was pleased to see a little bit of spirit in practice for a change. although I did need to sit and get rid of the dizzyness and shaking hands, while I was using the kiai to practice, I did feel like I was being held up with a renewed energy.

There are a number of ways to bolster your energy, and increase the performance of your application in Aikido techniques, although it might be a narrow minded soldier preparing for battle attitude, I must agree that there are many good ideas that must be practiced, taken into practice, and used as the need arises.

The fact that a particular type of Aikido is done this way, or that way is usually the evolution of actual usage verses theoretical practice of what could be.

After dwelling upon the physical means of application, I am exploring the next level of connecting the thought to bolstering the bodies effort ... and there are some very neat tricks that give or take away power. A good kiai is but one of them.

MattRice 10-09-2002 03:20 PM

we generally do not practice with kiai, which I initially found bizzaro coming from a karate background.

However, sensei has very interesting things to say concerning kiai. While demonstrating some sword techniques, (uke strikes shomenuchi, nage in hasso responds with shomenuchi right down uke's center, start of of kata 1)Sensei was nage, and did kiai when striking to uke's head with the sword. He explained that for the technique to work, his ki had to be clean and pure and that it is reflected in his kiai. If the kiai was clear and not ragged or throaty the ki was on.

Very cool and interesting...

Chuck.Gordon 10-09-2002 03:52 PM

Kiai
 
Quote:

Matt Rice (MattRice) wrote:
He explained that for the technique to work, his ki had to be clean and pure and that it is reflected in his kiai. If the kiai was clear and not ragged or throaty the ki was on.

FWIW, kiai ain't got NOTHING to do with sound. It is NOT spirit shout, or anything of the like. It IS something we all do and something we cna learn about.

And as for clean and pure ki, lemme tell ya a story.

A couple years ago, I had opportunity to train with Karl Friday, a VERY cool fellow who happens to hold very high rank in Kashima Shinryu and love beer and bad jokes. After class one day, my wife (a professional massage therapist) was offering her services to the folks who'd instructed. Karl plopped on her table (OK, he skidded when he hit), and let her magic fingers do their work.

She commented "You're in pretty good shape for the shape you're in .. suprisingly undamaged!!"

He says "It's because my spirit is pure and clean ..."

OK, she didn't QUITE laugh out loud. Well, maybe she did. When he told me what she said, _I_ laughed out loud.

Anyhow, it was vastly amusing.

Ahem.

For technique to work, you have to know the technique and know how to make it work. If you do this, you do this with KI. No, really.

Clean, pure, smudged, totally scmhutzed .. it don't matter. Ki is ki. We all have it. We all use it every damn day. It's all around us.

If you move, you use ki. If you breathe, you use ki. If you fart, piss, snort, cough, throw, pin, cut ... you use ki.

Sigh.

Can we not demystify this stuff and just train???

Oi. Wanna hear kiai? Come train with us.

Chuck

MattRice 10-09-2002 06:48 PM

I think Sensei's point is that there is a connection between ki, intent and the success of a technique and further that it can be reflected in kiai. I don't find much mystical there, seems pretty straightforward to me.

Creature_of_the_id 10-10-2002 04:15 AM

I once heard the head of our dojo comment that he does not teach people to train with Kiai, because he found that after someone has trained for 5 years they begin to understand kiai and it comes naturally.

I kiai and make noises alot... it reminds me to breath.

Funny how often people forget

Mr. P 10-10-2002 04:45 AM

IMHO, :ki: is a matter of breathing. One have to let ki travel within one's body, and exit when the technique is done.

So, if you want your "students" to exhale properly when practicing, make them shout (I don't know why, but it seems one exhales when shouting :p ) !

I think Sense´ only wanted to make us practice that way, to let us find why a bit later, ourselves...

Thanks for paying attention :straightf ...

Mr. P 10-10-2002 04:53 AM

I've just had an idea :rolleyes: when posting the last one...

IMO :

- when one shouts, energy is powerfully evacuated => you practice omote-style.

- when one only exhale (without any noise, like a japanese cherry-tree leaf falling on the ground :p ), energy is evacuated with calmness and control => you practice ura-style.

Please, what's your opinion on that :D ?

tedehara 10-13-2002 12:24 PM

I've got to agree with Bruce. Most people don't really kiai and I must include myself among them.

A real kiai is a separate attack. It will freeze a person. Ellis Amdur in his book Dueling with O-Sensei tells of an incident where he used a kiai to stop his kid from running into traffic.

After practicing a few times, I start to lose my voice. I've heard of people who have ruptured the soft tissue in their throats and spit up blood after practicing too long. In his book Ki: A Road Anyone can Travel William Reed recommends only 5-7 kiai during a practice session.

What does Iwama Ryu have to do with this? Are they suppose to always kiai during practice?

shadow 10-13-2002 10:17 PM

kiai are great. its especially amusing to hear each individuals kiai and i think it gives you some idea to what kind of person they are and what kind of training they do and where their centre is, it can probably tell you a whole lot more too.

i think my favorite kiai though is a yudansha woman at my dojo who growls..... i am woman hear me roar! hahahahhaahaha

oh and i train iwama ryu and kiai is just a normal part of training, i would love to know what the people walking past our dojo think, especially during a vigorous weapons session!

although i dont understand how you lose your voice or hurt your throat, for me kiai doesnt come from the throat, it originates in the abdomen and isnt a strain, rather a natural sound that escapes when the hip or centre locks into position, usually accompanied by a little tingling sensation just bellow the belly button. growing with intesity as power develops in the individual.

oh and Mr P, sounds like a good opinion to me, sometimes you feel like a kiai just isn't neccessary and the technique will in fact feel a lot softer.

Chuck.Gordon 10-14-2002 12:34 AM

Kiai
 
Quote:

Ted Ehara (tedehara) wrote:
After practicing a few times, I start to lose my voice. I've heard of people who have ruptured the soft tissue in their throats and spit up blood after practicing too long. In his book

Probably, then, you aren't doing it (maybe haven't been taught to) properly.

A vocalized kiai (and the don't have to be vocalized, folks, kiai is NOT spirit shout!!!), should not hurt and should not strain the throat.

You can learn to generate an enormous, crisp, wave of sound if you learn the proper technique and learn to relax whilst doing it.

Think of opening your throat, not closing it. Use 'round' sounds ...

Chuck

Ta Kung 10-14-2002 07:38 AM

I hardly use kiai in taijutsu, but I use it very often i weapons traing.

My kiai goes something like "eiiih", but there was this other guy (a newbie, back when I practised Taekwon-do) who went "kuuuu-AI"! He got mocked pretty bad :eek: :)

What do you guys sound like, when doing kiai?

/Patrik

tedehara 10-14-2002 09:36 AM

Re: Kiai
 
Quote:

Chuck Gordon (LOEP) wrote:
Probably, then, you aren't doing it (maybe haven't been taught to) properly.

A vocalized kiai (and the don't have to be vocalized, folks, kiai is NOT spirit shout!!!), should not hurt and should not strain the throat.

You can learn to generate an enormous, crisp, wave of sound if you learn the proper technique and learn to relax whilst doing it.

Think of opening your throat, not closing it. Use 'round' sounds ...

Chuck

A kiai is commonly known as a spirit shout. Why do you say it isn't?

I agree that the throat should be relaxed when you do this. However the act of doing an actual kiai is a tremendous outburst of energy. If it weren't so, it wouldn't be an actual kiai.

I made a mistake in my previous post. William Reed mentions kiai in his book Ki: A Practical Guide for Westerners pg 87-88. He does not talk about limiting practice, so that must have come from my own instruction. However, he does say
Quote:

William Reed wrote:
Don't overdo kiai practice or you will strain your voice. Volume is not the objective. The purpose of kiai is purification and mind-body unity in an instant..

I just do the traditional "ee-yay-ee!..." sound.

Chuck.Gordon 10-14-2002 02:45 PM

Re: Re: Kiai
 
Quote:

Ted Ehara (tedehara) wrote:
A kiai is commonly known as a spirit shout. Why do you say it isn't?

Because it's not a shout of any kind, but kiai CAN be accompanied by vocalization.

Kiai is as difficult to define as aiki (and uses the same characters).

Ki = spirit/energy/intent

Ai (from awaseru, IIRC) = meet/join/envelop

Kiai is not EXACTLY inverse of aiki, it is, rather, complementary and certainly related.

What I do to my uke is kiai (if it's done right). What happens is aiki ...

There doesn't have to be a sound at all, but proper breathing is certianly a factor (kokyu and all that). However, a properly trained vocalization is a 'kiai-enhancer' ... if you will.
Quote:

Ted Ehara (tedehara) wrote:
I agree that the throat should be relaxed when you do this. However the act of doing an actual kiai is a tremendous outburst of energy. If it weren't so, it wouldn't be an actual kiai.

Again, it CAN be loud but does not have to be.
Quote:

Ted Ehara (tedehara) wrote:
... instruction. However, he does say

I just do the traditional "ee-yay-ee!..." sound.

Hmm. Depends on what tradition ...

Many ryuha teach specific vocalizations for specific moments or movements. Ueshiba touches on this in some of the doka he wrote, but his elaborations are, um, poorly translated at best and obscure at worst.

Our system use a couple fairly commonly and a couple of other 'special-purpose- sounds.

Ei! Meets an opponent and initiaties action.

Hoh! Is a powerful cut or movement and a finishing sound.

A subvocalized Saaa! accompanies some throws at the projection phase.

All are open-throated and fully vocalized, but the intensity may vary with the situation and needs as well as with the degree of focus and intent.

Other ryuha (mostly, kiaijutsu is found in the koryu. The gendai arts sort of play with it, but seldom really coach or develop it) use similar terms in similar ways.

Chuck

Chuck

Mr. P 10-15-2002 02:50 AM

Actually, kiai depends on how you feel, what intensity you put in a technique, ...

So, I think we haven't to put specific sounds on techniques : it comes naturally (if you practice vocalized kiai, that is ;) ).


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