AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   General (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2685)

aikido_fudoshin 10-02-2002 12:44 PM

Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad
 
I found this on another website, sorry about the length, but what do you think of this?


Excerpt of Aikido Shugyo - Gozo Shioda's Autobiography

Avoiding the concentrated fire of revolvers

Talking about weird things, let me talk about an extremely strange event. This
is also something I actually witnessed with my own eyes. One time an official
from the munitions department of the army, together with 9 military personnel,
came to visit the Ueshiba Dojo. They came to watch the wonderful art of aikido
that they had heard about. These people were arms inspectors. They tested new
weapons and judged whether the sights were accurate or not. Their shooting
ability was Olympic level, and I noticed that they hit the target every time.

Ueshiba Sensei, who had done a demonstration before these people that day, had
claimed, "Bullets cannot reach me." I had, of course, previously heard that
when he was in Mongolia he had avoided the bullets of horse-mounted brigands,
but this was quite different. The inspectors' pride was hurt and they were
quite angry. "You're sure that the bullets won't touch you?" they asked. "Oh,
no, they won't." "Then would you like to try?" "Sure."

They took him at his word and promptly arranged the date that they were to meet
at the Okubo Army Shooting Centre. Before the date, they made Ueshiba Sensei
write officially that he had agreed to become a living target for the army
officers and got him to place his fingerprint on the document. As a further
precaution and verification, they took the document to the army court.
Therefore, even if Sensei was shot and killed, nobody could lodge a complaint.

The appointed day arrived, and a military car came to pick Sensei up to take
him to the shooting area in Okubo. Mr. Yukawa and myself accompanied him.
Naturally, Sensei's wife was very anxious and beseeched him to change his mind.
but Sensei kept replying light-heatedly, "It's all right., they will never hit
their target." Mr. Yukawa and myself were also very concerned; to the point
where we were wondering if it wouldn't be wise to make funeral preparations.
When we reached the shooting area, another surprise was waiting for us. I was
expecting only one gun to be aimed at Sensei, but we discovered that six men
would be firing pistols at him. The best range for pistols was 25 metres and,
normally, a target in the shape of a human is placed at this distance. This
time, however, Ueshiba Sensei was standing there in place of the doll. The six
men then positioned themselves, aiming at Ueshiba Sensei. While staring at him,
I kept thinking helplessly that twenty-five meters is a considerable distance,
and was wondering what on earth Sensei could do from there.

One, two, three…. The six revolvers fired at the same time and a cloud of dust
whirled around us. Then, suddenly, one of the six marksmen was flying through
the air! What had happened? Before we could figure it out, Sensei was standing
behind the six men, laughing into his beard.
We all were bewildered. I really and truly could not understand what had
happened. Not just me, but everyone present was so stunned that we could not
find words to express our shock. The six inspectors were not yet convinced and
asked if Sensei could do it again. "All right" he answered indifferently.

Once again, the six barrels were aimed at Ueshiba Sensei and were fired. This
time the inspector at the edge of the group flew into the air. In exactly the
same way as before, Ueshiba Sensei was standing behind the six inspectors
before we knew what was happening. I was dumbfounded. That time I had promised
myself to watch carefully in order to see exactly what Sensei was doing. But
even though I had tried very hard, I was completely unable to see how he had
moved.

Facing Ueshiba Sensei were the barrels of the six revolvers which had been
fired. This far I could remember clearly, but the next stage, where Sensei had
moved the distance of 25 metres and thrown one of the six marksmen, I simply
could not understand. I couldn't find any explanation for other than "God
techniques."


Flying golden balls

On our way back I asked, "Sensei, how could you do such a thing?" and I
received the following answer. Before the explosion, as the trigger is pulled,
a flash like a golden ball flies off. The actual bullet of the revolver comes
later, therefore it is easy to avoid.

In this case, even though the six men intend to shoot at the same time, they
are never exactly together. Because they shoot at slightly different times, I
just have to go to the one who is going to fire first. "The golden flash has a
spectacular noise," said Sensei. According to him, after the noise he would
begin to run. He ran in the shape of a ninja with his back bent, taking short
slow steps. The real bullet would come after he had already leapt forward about
half the distance. Sensei said that the time between the flash of gold and the
bullet was quite long, but for us watching, everything happened so quickly that
we had no idea that he was trying to get close enough to throw the first man
that had fired.

"God has said that I am necessary for this world and has decided to let me
live. My period of purification is not over so I cannot die. When I am not
necessary for this world anymore the gods will let me pass away." Sensei seemed
to be convinced, but of course we couldn't understand what he meant. I know
that you readers will have difficulty believing in stories like this, but these
kind of strange things really did happen.


Challenge with a master hunter

There is another story that relates to the previous one.

One of my acquaintances, Mr. Sadajiro Sato, was a hunter from Yamanashi
Prefecture. He was known as a master of gun hunting. For example, hunters
usually aim at and shoot pheasants when they are descending to the ground. At
this moment it is said that their flying speed is around 200 kilometres per
hour. If the pheasant is shot in the head it will drop straight to the ground,
but if the bullet hits the body it will fall a long way away. Accordingly,
hunters would try to aim for the head, which is not an easy target to hit. The
point is the Mr. Sato would hit the head every time he shot--he was the master
of masters.

One day I told Mr. Sato the story of Ueshiba Sensei avoiding the six revolvers.
"Even if he did that I am sure he won't be able to avoid mine," said Mr. Sato
confidently. "A human head is much bigger than that of the birds that I am used
to shooting. I cannot imagine missing that." Having said that, Mr. Sato came
down out of the mountains to challenge Ueshiba Sensei. I accompanied him to the
Ueshiba Dojo land told Sensei that Mr. Sato wished to challenge him. Sensei
accepted the proposal.

I watched carefully, and a bit anxiously, as Sensei sat down in seiza at the
far end of the Dojo while Mr. Sato took distance and aimed. And then just as he
was on the verge of pulling the trigger, Sensei dropped his head in recognition
and said, "Wait! Your bullet will hit me! Your thoughts are undistorted, and
clearly you want to hit me. From the beginning you've known that you are going
to hit your target. I cannot avoid the gun of such a man, you are a true
master!"

Mr. Sato returned happily to his mountains. I was deeply impressed. Mr. Sato
was a gun master, and Ueshiba Sensei recognised that and withdrew. It was proof
that a master can recognise another master. I was very fortunate to have been
able to see two precious masters challenging each other.

diesel 10-02-2002 03:17 PM

This was also presented in O Sensei's biography, The Invincible Warrior. While enjoyable to hear, I wonder how much of this was propaganda? Gozo sensei is a biased source for this information after being a uchi desa for O Sensei. I'm not saying this didn't happen, but I would like to see some other accounts of this occurance. Too bad there probaly are not any.

I think in the book it was rifles and not pistols? It's been a while since I have read this.. Concievably, if flintlocks were used, there is ALOT of smoke due to the amount of powder being burned off along with a flame from the cap ingniting the powder.. a good 1~3 seconds before the ball is actually fired. I could see one with years of martial experience being able to dodge this.

Thinking about the feasability of this and how in the context, Osensei says, "The golden flash has a spectacular noise,"... I think this was done with some form of flintlock or non-capped cartridges.

There is also the possibility that O'sensei could read the body language of the shooters and knew who would be firing at act accordingly, or he could read their minds, or perhaps they were afraid to shoot at him and missed on purpose.

No one will ever know for sure, so we take in stride. I know will not be trying to dodge bullets anytime soon. Of course, when the time is right.. I won't have to! ;)

Cheers,

Eric

:ki:

L. Camejo 10-02-2002 06:38 PM

Neo: Are you telling me that I'll be able to dodge bullets?

Morpheus: What I'm saying is that when you are ready, you won't have to.

The Matrix.

I wonder if O-Sensei was "ready"? :)

L.C.:ai::ki:

drDalek 10-03-2002 01:22 AM

I think that most of these stories are propaganda, you have to remember that in the struggle to "establish" the art of Aikido and having it accepted, the truth sometimes needs a bit of "creative polish".

Whether O'Sensei could or could not dodge bullets, even from flintlock rifles is immaterial, the fact that these stories attracted the students that are currently instructing us however, is.

mike lee 10-03-2002 04:07 AM

calling witnesses a liars
 
Quote:

I think that most of these stories are propaganda
Based on what evidence?

Ta Kung 10-03-2002 04:50 AM

I, for one, use common sense as evidence... :)

Actually, I don't really buy this rifle/gun story. It's just too over the top. And I don't need to buy these stories in order to appritiate to founder... He was one of the greatest martial artist ever, with or without the ability to dodge bullets!

Regards,

Patrik

mike lee 10-03-2002 05:08 AM

nonsense
 
Quote:

I, for one, use common sense as evidence
Your "common sense" is not equal to evidence in the form of witnesses who give first-hand accounts.

A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."

Ta Kung 10-03-2002 06:34 AM

I still don't buy it. And I still don't "need" to buy it; he was great either way. As far as Jeusus goes, he was the son of God. O'sensei wasn't.

Respectfully,

Patrik

REK 10-03-2002 06:36 AM

Re: nonsense
 
Quote:

Your "common sense" is not equal to evidence in the form of witnesses who give first-hand accounts.

A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."
As you may already be aware, witnesses are horrible historians. The mind and the senses tend to "fill in the blanks" when the brain is unable to fully perceive what has happened. Yet despite significant scientific support for this fact we tend to give immense credence to "eye-witness testimony" both in court and in church.

Secondly I would note that there is a difference between "truth" and "fact". Shioda may have presented the truth, but I, like Eric Roku, question the facts.

Rob

mike lee 10-03-2002 06:45 AM

incredulousness based on disbelief
 
Quote:

there is a difference between "truth" and "fact". Shioda may have presented the truth, but I, like Eric Roku, question the facts.
On what basis?

Ta Kung 10-03-2002 06:53 AM

In the days of yore, people around the campfire talked about their superior enemies. They often described them as invinceble giants. I get the feeling this phenomenon is still going strong.

Regards,

Patrik

PS. Mike, don't you ever question statements like the one we're talking about in this topic? Didn't you hesitate to believe it when you first heard it? :confused:

mike lee 10-03-2002 08:06 AM

take the long view
 
Quote:

Mike, don't you ever question statements like the one we're talking about in this topic? Didn't you hesitate to believe it when you first heard it?
What are you talking about??? I've questioned nearly all of your statements!!!

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the man that related the story is an aikdo shihan. I would be very reluctant to imply that such a man was a liar. After all, I might meet him or one of his high-ranking students someday, and I wouldn't want to get one of my arms twisted out of my shoulder socket.

Ta Kung 10-03-2002 09:00 AM

Quote:

What are you talking about??? I've questioned nearly all of your statements!!!
My statements, yes. The story we're discussing, no.

I'm not calling anyone a liar, but just because someone has a high grade doesn't mean that the person have all the facts. Are you really impying he can't be wrong, because he is a shian? :confused:

Maybe he saw what he said he saw, but I'm not so sure that we know everything about the story. What if, for arguments sake, it was a setup to promote Aikido? People do take money to do such pr stuff, you know. I don't buy that magic mumbo jumbo. I'm suprised you do.

Respectfully,

Patrik

PS. No, I'm not saing O'sensei was a fake. I'm just trying to explain that there might be more than meets the eye to this story. We do not have all the facts. If it occured as told, there could be something else beside magic involved...:rolleyes:

mike lee 10-03-2002 09:08 AM

Quote:

What if, for arguments sake, it was a setup to promote Aikido?
Once again, what facts do you have to support your arguement? Any witnesses?

Ta Kung 10-03-2002 09:22 AM

Mike... "What if", "for arguments sake".

/Patrik

diesel 10-03-2002 09:23 AM

Quote:

Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Once again, what facts do you have to support your arguement? Any witnesses?

He is saying, "let's suppose this was setup to promote aikido.." Not, I have solid evidence here that Osensei, in fact, did not dodge bullets. In fact, all he did was do a leaping mae ukemi and a diagonal to the shooters and covered 20 feet in 3 seconds and threw a guy. Through the smoke from the guns however, no-one saw Osensei do the ukemi, all they saw was him up and throwing one of the shooters.

Maybe shihan Shioda looked away, distracted by Osensei's wife, and/or sneezed and didn't actually see what happened. Would he admit to Osensei that he "missed" it, I think not.

Again, the point being, we are only getting one account of the story. I am not calling Shioda sensei a liar, in fact I have great respect for the Shioda line and yoshinkan, but if you base all your facts from the recollection of one person... that is not very scientific.

It was stated, simply, We would like other accounts of this. It would have been nice if the soldiers that actually did the shooting were around to give their story.

One of my distant relatives wrote a journal about how he witnessed the rebirth of christ. Christ was actually an alien and he saw the spaceship come down, moved the big rock blocking the tomb with a tractor beam, and removed the corpse and went back to space. He wrote this, therefore it must be true.

Think for yourself, think outside of the box.

Eric

Alan Drysdale 10-03-2002 10:04 AM

"Maybe he saw what he said he saw, but I'm not so sure that we know everything about the story. What if, for arguments sake , it was a setup to promote Aikido? People do take money to do such pr stuff, you know. I don't buy that magic mumbo jumbo. I'm suprised you do."

And maybe it is a test to see how gullable we are.

drDalek 10-03-2002 10:13 AM

Quote:

Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Once again, what facts do you have to support your arguement? Any witnesses?

What hard tangible facts do you have to support your idea that the entire event even took place in the first place? The word of one supposed "eyewitness"? Do you still believe the earth is flat?

Do you believe that David Copperfield can realy fly? That trick is pretty convincing, then again its still only a trick...

++ Just want to add, I am not calling anyone a liar but I am definately calling mike lee a TROLL

+++ Any opinion vs. opinion arguments on the internet invariably end up as a flame-war, proceed at your own risk.

mike lee 10-03-2002 10:30 AM

just the facts, please
 
Quote:

Maybe shihan Shioda looked away, distracted by Osensei's wife, and/or sneezed and didn't actually see what happened. Would he admit to Osensei that he "missed" it, I think not.
Such an arguement is nonsense. If six men were about to shoot O'Sensei as part of a demonstration, would you "miss it"?

Plus, according to the story, they did it twice. So, if you missed it the first time, don't you think that you might try really hard not to "be distracted," so you would surely witness it when it happened the second time?

I think the source has to be given some serious consideration in this case. That is, he is probably a high-ranking martial artist, he is a Japanese living in Japan, and he was there. Can any one of you on this thread make this claim?

Japanese are not known to carry out scams in an effort to promote martial arts. If such a scam were ever uncovered, they would become totally discredited. No high-level martial artist would risk it.

Connecting O'Sensei with such a scam is entirely unthinkable.

Ultimately, someone may be able to debunk this story. But if that's the case, I would seriously doubt that O'Sensei had anything to do with it.

Now, if anyone doesn't believe this story, do something constructive -- debunk it with some facts!

mike lee 10-03-2002 10:38 AM

where's the beef?
 
Quote:

Any opinion vs. opinion arguments on the internet invariably end up as a flame-war, proceed at your own risk.
I have no "opinion" in this matter, other than if you believe the story is false, prove it. The story itself has more facts than does anyone who doesn't believe the story so far.

I have an open mind -- just prove the story is false, and then I'll believe it's false!

And please, try to do it before you resort to any more childish name-calling. :rolleyes:

diesel 10-03-2002 10:55 AM

Your missing the whole point. I did not say that this did not happen, nor did I say Shiodo sensei is a liar. I am saying I would like more proof then 1 person saying, yes, I saw this happen. Hey Mike, this morning when I was out jogging, I saw god. She was african american.

Look, I, 1 person, am accounting this. Therefore, it is true.

It seems to me, you say you have an open mind, but in your posts your not being open minded.

The point is, there is only one accounted witness. You realize that there are people that say the holocaust did not happen, that people did not land on the moon, that cuba is responsible for JFKs murder. If GW Bush says that IRAQ is responsible for the september 11th attacks because he saw a document from Hussein saying he ordered it. Does that make it true because Bush is the president?

I have had the same conversation with many catholics in regards to the existence of god. You take it for granted and beleive what you have been told without any tangible proof. That's not being open minded.

Maybe it's because I am a scientist and only beleive what I have solid evidence for and can reproduce.

Cheers,

Eric

mike lee 10-03-2002 11:11 AM

get a grip
 
Quote:

Hey Mike, this morning when I was out jogging, I saw god. She was african american.
If that really happened to you, then I believe you.

It just so happened that there were at least 8 witnesses, and the one that recounts the demonstration is a highly respected aikidoist.

If the man does not have a history of making up stories or creating illusions to "promote aikido," then I still see no reason not to believe him.

After a fight with a swordsman, O'Sensei walked out into a garden and felt he was enveloped in a golden light. As far as I know, there were no witnesses to this event, yet many aikidoists believe the story.

P.S. Do you have a history of making up stories?

diesel 10-03-2002 11:25 AM

I wouldn't beleive you if you told me you saw god. ;) I would want pictures! There is a difference between spiritual events and actualy events however. I have no doubt in my mind that osensei had spiritual awakenings. There is no way to prove or disprove this. There were numerous witnesses to the shooting event yes. But the point is, there is only 1 account of it.

I think this thread is now just an arguement? I will post no further, if you want to continue, message me privately please ;)

Cheers,

Eric

"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."

-Albert Einstein

Ta Kung 10-03-2002 11:42 AM

Wasn't there also a story about o'sensei beeing challenged by some other gun expoert? As the gun expert was getting ready to shoot him, o'sensei said something like "Stop! Your mind is clear and you will hit me, because you really want to." (and/or something else along those lines).

That got me thinking. Wasn't the first group really trying to shoot him, then? And if they were, wouldn't o'sensei have "sensed" it like he did with this man?

Mike. Do you believe that o'sensei was a real magican? I don't see how else he could have mangaed it. No-one before or since, have been able to... Seriously, isn't there a single doubt in your mind?

/Patrik

mike lee 10-03-2002 12:07 PM

the nitty gritty
 
Quote:

There is no way to prove or disprove this. There were numerous witnesses to the shooting event yes.
The fact of the matter is that O'Sensei died from complications caused by liver cancer at the ripe old age of 86, and not from gun-shot wounds at some earlier date.

Eight witnesses at the event saw O'Sensei survive without a scratch. It may be hard to believe, but I have so far seen no evidence to the contrary.

I might add that there are many Americans that believe the moon-walk was staged on a movie set and that it was a conspiracy to make the Russians believe that the US was actually technologically more advanced than the Soviet Union. Once again, show me the evidence, and I'll believe it.

As the result of a law suit, a lot of top secret information about Area 51 has become a part of the public record. After seeing this evidence, I now have a more clear idea about Area 51.

Facts, evidence, and quality sources unravel lies and reveal the truth. If you've got something to say, back it up. If you can't back it up, it's a meaningless waste of words.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:15 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.