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-   -   Training: Separate the Sexes? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2608)

Jermaine Alley 09-18-2002 08:59 AM

Training: Separate the Sexes?
 
There is a very interesting thread on the line now discussing the pro's and con's of flirting with fellow aikidoka or budoka.

My question is: Does anyone attend a dojo that keeps the sexes separate while training?

I am sure that there aren't any here inthe U.S....but what about abroad?

jermaine

Creature_of_the_id 09-18-2002 09:04 AM

I dont know of any here in the UK either. But, I do sometimes recommend women train with women for certain techniques when I am teaching.

To be honest, there are a few techniques in which you dont even have to recommend it. Women will just partner up with each other out of instinct over potential pitfalls of training with men at that time.

Genex 09-18-2002 09:20 AM

Oh no not again!
 
If there are there shouldnt be, today were living in a sociaty where everybody should be treated the same (although they're not) weather your a particular colour, sex, or even if your a lawyer you can still train with all the other human beans.

I beleive there have been many threads on aikiweb about this and they have ranted on and on about the same stuff over again some women think its a great idea so they dont have to put up with men, some men think its a great idea for the same reason, some for religious perposes, some for the fact that they think women are inferior or that men just plain cannot understand women (who can)

aikido is about the art, it doesnt matter who you train with, it doesnt matter because weather you have breasts or not has no influence on wheather you can throw someone 20 ft or drop a guy like a sack of spuds.

at our school if your black, white, green, pink, female, male ,N/A or just plain nutz i'm still gonna practace yonkyo on yer and i aint gonna ask does it hurt because it bloody well should.

yoroshiku

pete

Jermaine Alley 09-18-2002 03:05 PM

Thanks guys,, i didn't think that there were too many dojo now a days that actually separate the sexes.

Did they do it in the old days though? In our dojo we like to concentrate on street effective techniques. If we separated the sexes, we would be instilling a false sense of security in our instudents and removing a valuable learning too....the opposite sex. Thanks again.....

jermiane

batemanb 09-18-2002 08:08 PM

One of my Sesnei`s here in Japan went to Indonesia to train for a vacation, he told me that they have segregated classes there, the women also keep their faces concealed as they do in public. Must be bloody hot for them during keiko.

I have seen a dojo`s here in Japan, including the Aikikai Hombu that have womens classes, all other classes are mixed though.

opherdonchin 09-18-2002 10:27 PM

I was in a dojo in Burlington VT where men and women not only train together on the same mat, but actually dress in the same dressing room. Disconcerting at first, but somehow not very difficult once you get used to it.

I was brought up on the lie that men and women are the same, and I believed it for many years. I was very annoyed when I found out that they are very different creatures, with different brains, different hormonal systems, different behavioral patterns, different sensibilities, and different skills. The support this myth got from many circles was unconscionable: a victory of a dream over a willingness to struggle with reality.

Not that difference justifies any sort of inequality before the law or oppressive patriarchy within society, of course.

Tadhg Bird 09-18-2002 11:16 PM

Quote:

Did they do it in the old days though?
I was perusing _Aikido, The Way of Harmony_, the other day and there is a picture of a woman doing ... wel I'm not sure *what* technique she is doing, any way uke is a dude, and he's bent over backwards, and the caption reads: "Throughout the history of Aikido, women have practiced together with men under the same conditions on the same level" So I would say, yes. They *did* do it in the old days. :D
Quote:

But, I do sometimes recommend women train with women for certain techniques when I am teaching.
What techniques would these be? And why?
Quote:

i'm still gonna practace yonkyo on yer and i aint gonna ask does it hurt because it bloody well should.
*owie* I'm glad that last night's yonkyo pratice didn't hurt at all!

Smooth Roads,

-- Tadhg (who likes his yonkyo effective and pain free)

Chris Li 09-18-2002 11:27 PM

Quote:

Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I was in a dojo in Burlington VT where men and women not only train together on the same mat, but actually dress in the same dressing room. Disconcerting at first, but somehow not very difficult once you get used to it.

Happens a lot in Japan. Nobody pays much attention to it...

Best,

Chris

drDalek 09-19-2002 01:55 AM

I have an issue training with women, luckily its not a big one because we only have about two girls in the dojo.

The issue is not a sexual one though, I can make the seperation between sexual intimacy and aikido intimacy.

The issue is the whole 'never hurting a girl' thing that I was raised with. I sometimes catch myself going a bit easy on the girls when practicing with them and I am a bit scared that they are picking up on this and that it might hurt their feelings because they might think that I think they are unable to take the falls.

Anyone else having a case like this?

peteswann 09-19-2002 02:25 AM

Quote:

Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I was in a dojo in Burlington VT where men and women not only train together on the same mat, but actually dress in the same dressing room. Disconcerting at first, but somehow not very difficult once you get used to it.

We went to a course in Holland at a Dojo run by a former student of our Sensei and they all seem to get changed and even shower male and female together!! :blush: As you say, it was a bit of a shock at first being from the slightly prudish UK but people soon got over it!! :p

Pete

JJF 09-19-2002 04:49 AM

Quote:

Wynand van Dyk (drDalek) wrote:
I have an issue training with women, luckily its not a big one because we only have about two girls in the dojo.

The issue is not a sexual one though, I can make the seperation between sexual intimacy and aikido intimacy.

The issue is the whole 'never hurting a girl' thing that I was raised with. I sometimes catch myself going a bit easy on the girls when practicing with them and I am a bit scared that they are picking up on this and that it might hurt their feelings because they might think that I think they are unable to take the falls.

Anyone else having a case like this?

This was discussed A LOT quite some months ago. Since then I have been wondering wether I 'go easy' on women or not. At first I thought I did, but then I realised, that yes I do go easy on most of the women in our dojo, but that is because they are not very advanced students and tend to be easily hurt. I act the same way with male beginners, who are not used to take ukemi and ajust their movements to the pain. It all comes down to the fact that I ajust the level of power and intencity in my techniques according to the other person. I HAVE been practicing with very competent female aikidoka and they can take just as much heat as any man on the mat.

Just rambling.....

stoker 09-19-2002 08:32 AM

I have always been taught that the smallest person must be able to do the technique on the largest person (usally me at six foot five and 265 lbs) or the technique is not valid. It's easy for someone to use my strength but there is always someone stronger jsut around the corner.

DGLinden 09-19-2002 08:35 AM

I not only seperate the sexes, I keep women out of the dojo altogether.

I may have the only dojo in the country that does not accept any women students.

I could go on for hours as to why, but the real reason is that it pleases me. As I turn away anywhere from 5 to 10 potential students a week (the dojo has a waiting list) I seem to be doing something right.

We have no issues with dating, male dominance, PMS, jealosy, locker rooms or toilets. Back when I allowed women to train I NEVER let husbands and wives or couples train together. Over 30 years I've seen too many personal problems brought to the mat. I should mention that my lovely wife is a Shodan. I have no problem women training everywhere else, I think its just fine.

opherdonchin 09-19-2002 08:46 AM

Please do go on a bit about why you decided to do that.

akiy 09-19-2002 09:04 AM

Quote:

Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I was in a dojo in Burlington VT where men and women not only train together on the same mat, but actually dress in the same dressing room. Disconcerting at first, but somehow not very difficult once you get used to it.

One dojo in Germany where I trained had "coed" dressing rooms.

One of my teachers went over to Germany a long while back when she had just gotten her nidan. After training with a bunch of burly guys, slamming each other on the mat, she thought it was quite a test for her to get into the showers with them all.

Incidentally, her dojo (in the United States) also had coed dressing rooms for quite a long time -- over twenty years, if I remember correctly. She said it was actually the men who started feeling uncomfortable and asked for separate dressing rooms, interestingly enough.

-- Jun

Don_Modesto 09-19-2002 02:22 PM

Quote:

Bryan Bateman (batemanb) wrote:
One of my Sesnei`s here in Japan went to Indonesia to train for a vacation, he told me that they have segregated classes there, the women also keep their faces concealed as they do in public.

Indonesia? They never covered their faces when I was there. They seldom even covered their heads as they do in Malaysia...

batemanb 09-19-2002 06:26 PM

Quote:

Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Indonesia? They never covered their faces when I was there. They seldom even covered their heads as they do in Malaysia...

Don,

thanks for that, rusty memory, it was Malaysia that he went to, not Indonesia.

Abasan 09-19-2002 10:07 PM

'Don,

thanks for that, rusty memory, it was Malaysia that he went to, not Indonesia.'

Really? I've been to a lot of dojo's here in Malaysia... being Malaysian and all, and I don't recall any segregation of sexes. There is a university dojo that does this, but thats more an exception than the rule.

Furthermore, they don't cover their faces. They cover their hair, neck. Like nuns...

Keiko with it is not extremely uncomfortable. You may need to get used to it... but hey, ask the kendoist who cover their heads (even without the helmet thingey).

Did your Japanese Sensei which dojo he went to? Or was it during the Asian Aikido Federation meet? Was it when doshu came over?

batemanb 09-20-2002 01:51 AM

Quote:

ahmad abas (Abasan) wrote:
'Don,

thanks for that, rusty memory, it was Malaysia that he went to, not Indonesia.'

Really? I've been to a lot of dojo's here in Malaysia... being Malaysian and all, and I don't recall any segregation of sexes. There is a university dojo that does this, but thats more an exception than the rule.

Furthermore, they don't cover their faces. They cover their hair, neck. Like nuns...

Keiko with it is not extremely uncomfortable. You may need to get used to it... but hey, ask the kendoist who cover their heads (even without the helmet thingey).

Did your Japanese Sensei which dojo he went to? Or was it during the Asian Aikido Federation meet? Was it when doshu came over?

I could well have the whole thing twisted, especially the country. I am positive he told me they had separate classes, because his wife trained in one and he trained in the other. He also mentioned the head scarves, although I may well have misinterpreted his story to me. As to which dojo, I have no idea, it was a couple of years ago, I don`t believe it was in conjunction with Doshu as they went for a vacation.

Wasn`t trying to cast aspersions at any specific country, just relaying that someone had told me about training in a segregated dojo.

I`ll try and confirm next time I see them.

PhilJ 09-20-2002 02:12 AM

General B.S.:

I have to believe that there are more options besides running away from the situation.

If we don't practice with the opposite sex... is there a balance? Where's the yin for the yang? Sure it works for a while, but isn't it unhealthy to the body, mind, and soul to only deal with one kind of energy?

At work, there's some people I don't enjoy -- but I still have to work with them. Conflict is at the heart of harmony -- without conflict, there is no need for harmony, right? Rivers would sink through the earth into space and lawyers would be jobless. ;)

Bruce Baker 09-20-2002 07:30 AM

There is a polarity of body to consider when learning techniques. Men and women do have a different polarity, so in the application of techniques and that little spark that flashes brightly, or the dull action of a physical throw, there is a difference when men work with men or women work with women.

I do advocate people of same ability working the same sex, but not for the entire class. If , for nothing else, than to get a feel for the technique before moving on to a male or female partner. As for separation of training for male or female? Well, I guess that is up to the society or the people who are practicing, isn't it?

Even if they practice gender separation, sooner or later, they will advance in skill level, visit other countrys or dojos, and have to train without gender separation.

As for the polarity thing, you will need to study this when you see the hidden meanings for many techniques with pain, or in pressure point study by finding them within your Aikido techniques. But that is for another time.

rgfox5 09-20-2002 07:51 AM

It seems to me that any dojo where the sexes are separated, or as in one remarkable case mentioned women are disallowed altogether, is doing an extreme disservice to both men and women but especially the women. Where then should women learn to deal with attacks, which almost always will come from men?

There are some women in our dojo that are so tough that any thought of "taking it easy on them" totally evaporates as my concentration has to be 100% in order to try and take their center or take the best ukemi I can so I don't get hurt. It is quite an uplifting experience since I was also raised not hit girls. So to attack them with my best attack and then feel myself completely and thoroughly dealt with shakes loose the cultural baggage and feels great.

An interesting aside, I fairly recently had a road rage incident directed at me where a pretty small girl came up to my parked car and screamed and cussed at me and spit in my face. I moved my head but still caught a little spray on my cheek. The temptation to knock her out was quite strong, but I thought to myself "Whoa, have I studied martial arts for years just to damage this, admittedly obnoxious, girl?" So I swallowed my pride and did nothing except get more distance. I have no doubt that had it been a man my reaction would have been quite different.

I am quite shocked that a dojo in this country in the 21st century would not allow women, and would be very interested in hearing what possible justification the teacher has for what is, to me, a completely untenable position.

Rich

DanielR 09-20-2002 08:21 AM

Quote:

Richard Fox (rgfox5) wrote:
I am quite shocked that a dojo in this country in the 21st century would not allow women, and would be very interested in hearing what possible justification the teacher has for what is, to me, a completely untenable position.

Same here. As much as I sympathize with the principle of a private practice and the complete discretion of its owner in business decisions, the fact there're segregated dojos out there is rather surprising.

Interesting observation, I checked the web site of this dojo, and, unless I'm missing something, there's no mention of the fact that women are not welcome there.
Quote:

Daniel Linden wrote:
Back when I allowed women to train I NEVER let husbands and wives or couples train together. Over 30 years I've seen too many personal problems brought to the mat.

Would you please elaborate on how you deal with other types of personal problems that your students might be having? Say, if over the 30 years you had several student that experienced prolonged depressions because they'd just been laid off, would you condlude that you'd rather not deal with such problems at all and expel students that let their personal problems affect their performance on the mat?

opherdonchin 09-20-2002 08:59 AM

All right, now that we've created a truly supportive and accepting environment for Daniel to explain his approach, it's a wonder that he isn't coming forward to explain himself.:rolleyes:

I've very curious about the single sex policy. It doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy or be particularly interested in trying, but I don't see a reason to condemn it out of hand, or even to condemn it once it is in hand. If a group of men want to train together then one imagines, given the state of AiKiDo in the U.S. today that the women will have plenty of other options that they can go to for their training.

I wonder if Daniel Rozenbaum or Richard would have felt the same way about a woman teacher who had a woman-only dojo. I'm not implying that they would feel necessarily differently (or even that they should). I'm honestly curious whether for either of them that would be a different situation.

paw 09-20-2002 09:03 AM

Hmmmm....
Quote:

I not only seperate the sexes, I keep women out of the dojo altogether.
Is that legal? Even if it is, seems like a lawsuit just waiting to happen....
Quote:

Back when I allowed women to train I NEVER let husbands and wives or couples train together.
What about same sex relationships (ie homosexual men)? In 30 years you must have had a few.


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