Tozando Hakama?
 

So I was recently browsing suppliers of hakama and read great things about Tozando, while I was browsing I noticed they have a sale on at the moment so now might be as good a time as any to go ahead and buy two for the future. I am curious if anyone has bought this specific hakama before and what their thoughts were, as while yes the site does have reviews I tend not to trust reviews that are published on the sites themselves. I'm looking at the Memory Pleats Deluxe hakama so that I won't need to worry about ironing it ever. This one

http://www.tozandoshop.com/Mitsubosh...7[xxx].htm

And I have some questions. One, can these be tumbled as well or does the koshiita make that impossible for all hakama? My other questions are mostly about the sizing. I am 172cm tall of pretty average-athletic physique, from what I've seen on the tatami just about all women wear the hakama at the waist which is my intention as well. From the guide it suggests the size 26 for my height and when I measure that against my side it seems more or less right, but I am worried about it being undersized. Do all sizing charts that make these suggestions take into account the positioning of womens hakamas? There is a difference of 5cm to each size between men and women but I feel like 5cm difference from a man's hips to a woman's waist is underestimating. Would it be safer to go for the longer hakama and then hem it in the future? Do the hakamas shrink at all? Regarding the white "stitching" visible in some of the images, is that just to keep it in shape during transport? Do I cut that out when they arrive?

Thanks! :)

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Can only answer a couple of these questions..

No - I've never had Tozando hak shrink.
Yes - cut the white stitching out

I wear Tozando as do most people in my association. Only once did I buy a cheaper one from them that I really wasn't that happy about....otherwise I've always been satisfied although occasionally annoyed by import tax into UK.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Thank you for the response! Out of interest have you found their sizing chart matched up for you? Does your height correlate correctly to the size you wear?

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

I have one of these and it is a great product. The size chart was correct for me, but I have no idea how it would match with a woman who wears it higher. I hand wash mine periodically and air dry it so I don't know how well it would do in a machine washing and drying. They arrive stitched with white thread to hold everything is place during shipping. What I do with mine is sew a small white stitching on the inside of each pleat at the very bottom in order to ensure that I will get the pleats properly lined up when I hang a hakama to dry.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Keep in mind this is not a Tozando product. It's a Mitsuboshi product that is sold through the Tozando site. I have not owned a Mitsuboshi Hakama, but I'm about to retire a Mitsuboshi keikogi that I bought in 2006. It's been pretty good, and I think 10 years is a reasonable lifespan. I also own a tetron hakama made by a different manufacturer, and I can vouch that the material is light and durable and holds the pleats well. I have a cotton hakama for special occasions, but the tetron one is my every day hakama.

As for washing with the koshi-ita, I'd be very hesitant to do anything that might damage it. I hand wash and drip dry my hakama in order to protect the koshi-ita. I got lazy and got a dry cleaner in Tokyo to clean it once, and they made a total mess of it. Soon afterwards the koshi-ita split. I think they totally ignored my instructions about protecting the koshi-ita.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Thank you both for the responses :).

And apologies for my oversight on the brand, I assumed that all the hakama on the Tozando site were Tozando hakama and that Mitsuboshi was the "name" of this specific one. I took the dive and ordered two at a size 26 after measuring out the listed length, fingers crossed this will be Ok. I could have got the longer to be safer but had concerns about ruining the edge by taking it in. I actually got a mail from them as well advising me to change delivery choice due to high import tax to Greece which was a nice touch as I know a lot of online shopping places wouldn't do that

Re washing, is that the common thing then, to hand wash and air dry? I expected tumble drying not to be an option but would be surprised if washing were a problem - though I suppose there is certainly a level of risk involved with damage to the koshiita from the hot water and being tossed around. Also how often do you wash the hakama? I assume that since it doesn't actually get much skin contact that it would certainly be less often than the keiko gi (which personally I am partial to wearing only once before washing). Once a week for a hakama used 3-6 times a week sounds about right? Or less often?

What is the real difference between tetron and cotton hakama? I have heard that cotton are considered higher quality and make for better "special occasion" wear though I am not sure why this is the case.

Thanks again!

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Hello,

All the hakama I have ever used, apart from perhaps one at the very beginning, have been Iwata hakama, as have been the keikogi I have used. This is not because Iwata are any better than Tozando, which I have never worn, but because Iwata is very near the Aikikai Tokyo Hombu Dojo and it was easy to visit the store when I was in Tokyo. I have several grades of keikogi, some heavy like for judo and others lighter, like for karate and shorinji k. I do like the Iwata equipment because it is based on years of supplying the Aikikai, which is a vast organization in Japan.

I have never, ever, worn a cotton hakama, for the simple reason that you need to wash them and the dye goes everywhere. Generations of student yudansha aikidoists have had light blue keikogi because they followed the fashion of wearing cotton hakama when they first took shodan, and then graduating to the 'tetron' variety after they reached nidan. (In Japan, rites of passage are very important.)

Since I have never washed a hakama, I have no experience of this. If it is necessary, I take the hakama to a specialist cleaning store that caters for the martial arts and can handle the pleats properly. However, I have found it best to have several hakama (I once had seven) and of different grades of quality.

Finally, do not believe all you hear about the virtues that are symbolized by the pleats. Better to read the history of the garment -- and how it was given a 'spiritual' value much, much later.

Best wishes,

PS. Mitsuboshi simply means 'three stars', you know, like Michelin with the restaurants. Whether this means they are better is, of course, moot. In Japan, there are shiro-boshi (white stars = good) and kuro-boshi (black stars = bad).

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

I wash my hakama when it needs it - I don't have a set schedule, but it is about once a month. I do wash my hakama with a damp cloth frequently when folding it though. I wash mine by hand because it tends to keep the material in better shape over time, and I suppose that it protects the kashita more than a washing machine would.

I also have a wonderful cotton Tozando hakama. It is many times heavier than the tetron type and I guess you could compare it to being a tuxedo while the other is just a business suit. My cotton one is black and I haven't had any problem at all with the dye staining anything at all. On the other hand, the indigo blue cotton hakama fade and stain everything. I've heard that there is a way to set the blue indigo dye, but I don't know how that works.

In any event, I do recommend that you either mark the inside of each pleat with a spot of white paint or sew a small spot with white thread just to make sure you have the pleats properly aligned. Makes life much simpler.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

That's unusual that the dry cleaners here would not know how to clean a hakama. My local one has been fine. I can even ask for the pleats to be ironed (Literally "pleats") and it comes back in perfect condition. That being said, the koshiita insert in my old cotton hakama fell apart not too long ago and that had been to the dry cleaner a few times over the years.

The Mitsuboshi products seem to be pretty popular here. Seido, as far as I know, sell pretty much the same Tozando and Mitsuboshi hakamas under their own name. If you train a LOT you might want to look into any options for re-inforcing the weak points. Other than that, usually the stitching comes undone in places eventually. The koshiita usually contains rubber.

One thing that is a bit odd is that if I followed their height guide, I'd be wearing a 26.5 (I'm about 173cm tall). I wear a 26 and I think it's too long. If I bought another one I'd get it a size or two smaller.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Washing and ironing a hakama is quite an involved process. Since it doesn't come in contact with the skin much, every few months should be okay. If you feel like washing it more often, that's okay too, though.

The main difference between tetron and cotton is the amount of care involved in looking after it. The tetron will keep its pleats, even when washed, and tends not to fade. The cotton loses its pleats really easily, so you have to be really careful when folding it, and especially when washing. It also creases and fades really easily.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

With the above descriptions I am currently struggling to understand why cotton hakama are considered a "higher grade" than tetron when they present such a variety of issues :P.

For those that have owned the memory pleats style hakamas, is ironing still a factor? I was under the impression that simply letting it air dry it would maintain the pleats, hence the purchase of this specific hakama.

Just in case that is not the case though, can someone provide an image of this stitching that everyone keeps mentioning? I am having trouble visualizing what is being spoken about, this would be on the inside of the hakama but would it not be visible on the pleats from the outside if it goes through the material?

Our tatami is er, well, lets say not the most "frequently maintained" so I suppose it will be a case of waiting and seeing regarding how frequently to wash it. I have worn white socks on it a few times and they are consistently filthy on the bottom, but since they are white of course it is prone to showing more, so time will tell if it shows on the hakama too. I do train quite frequently (starting on 8 hours a week from today) so it might be necessary to reinforce the weak points (however that is done!).

Currawong, regarding the sizing that you mentioned, I am roughly the same height as you (172cm), are you wearing the hakama at the waist or at the hips? For it too be too long would be something of a surprise - though certainly a more welcome one than it being too short.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Cass- I think I have one of the tetron style hakama. It was around 60-70 US dollars although I have heard about much more expensive ones. I wear mine below my belly button so I can breathe. My ankles are barely exposed. I wash it whenever it gets too funky or when I like it to smell like fresh laundry - this helps with my movement... ha!

The hakama, like my gi's, get beat up quite a bit and the pleats are still there. I don't fold it. I roll it up into a flat coil most of the time and leave it in the dojo. It took some months for the breaking in period and then the thing just works. One of the sides ripped once and had to be sewn back, but it is still kicking. So use it, practice, and wash it?

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

The reason cotton is more highly valued is because of the feel and because it is traditional. Functionally speaking, it is inferior, but it feels nice.

Tetron will maintain its pleats if hand washed, but I like to run an iron over it after washing, just to make sure. Probably not necessary, but I do it anyway. I also had to re-iron them after the dry cleaner stuffed it up.

I'm a bit lost about what stitching you are referring to. Do you mean the white stitching in the photo? That is basically to make it look neat in the packaging and should be cut out before wearing...

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Ah right, thanks, these responses have been great! My hakamas were just confirmed shipped so soon enough I'll know how they are for myself ;). I think I will stick to hand washing as that seems the most advised and at first I won't iron the pleats and see how they hold, if it isn't working they can always be "recovered" :P.

Also no no not that stitching, the stitch/paint mentioned by Michael

Also as something of an afterthought, I got both of them embroidered, yellow-gold on the navy and had in mind for the black hak to have black katakana on it that may only show when observed closely or in the light. On second though, it might not show at all but I thought it could be something a little different (most colour combos haven't seemed to sit very nicely on the black from what I've seen).

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Hi Cassia,

Take a look at this video of James Nakayama Sensei showing how to wash and hang a hakama:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVOpHIWV9Dk

My black cotton hakama has my name stitched in black, while my tetron has our dojo name stitched in red which looks like the dojo hanko stamp.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

For summer training I bought one of those Seido (Tozando) part-hemp hakamas which are very thin, to the point that you can see through the material if light is behind it. The disadvantage to them is that they are the most incredible sweat sponge and have to be washed after every other training. However I found it was easy just to do this in a basin full of water by leaving it folded during washing, then hang it up overnight to dry, pleats still in place.

One of the very senior students here just bought a Tozando cotton hakama, her second, as the old one was falling apart. Since her hands are blue after every class, we joke that she looks like she has just been to the police station.

My old Iwama cotton hakama has stretched in various directions so that getting the pleats straight is impossible. I sent it back recently to have the koshiita repaired, as the rubber inside had fallen apart. I tried the vinegar-in-the-iron trick to see if I could get the pleats to set, but it was hopeless, so I only use it when I know I wont have to rush to fold it.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

I have a black-on-black embroidered hakama from Tozando. The effect is exactly as intended - you can see it, if you know what to look for, but it is rather unobtrusive, just as I wanted it to be.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

Markus that is great news, thank you! And thanks everyone for the care advice, I will see how it holds up during lessons and I suppose go by a look-and-sniff test method for how often to wash it. Probably it will be more often than most, I'm a bit of a stickler for hygiene in the dojo (my keiko gi only gets one use before a wash). I think I will avoid the cotton and alternative material hakamas for the timebeing, tetron seems tried and tested as a good option ;).

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

An update as they have arrived without incident yesterday! I removed the white stitching and the sizing seems good (to my ankle bone in length). I tried them on in a very rudimentary manner - I don't know how to tie them as yet and there seem to be different ways, I will hold off on learning that for now as it will be some time before I get to actually use them and I will forget how it's done in the meantime. A previous style of wearing them that I had seen done by several in the Tissier circle (tucking the sides beneath the belt) looks ridiculous when worn at the waist as it seems to become extremely wide and flared (looked like a marshmellow). To be honest they don't look particularly flattering on me either way, but that's possibly by tying them incorrectly as everyone else on the tatami looks great in a hakama.

I honestly can't really see how the pleats are "memory pleats"? On the inside there is no stitching to them as I have seen on other hakama, but instead up by the top they seem kind of permanently folded into the obi? That's all that is needed for them to stay? The embroidery turned out great, as did the colours, they look nice. I tried to fold them in a way I had seen others at my dojo do, which was a mistake, first I have 2 cats and their hair is everywhere, which I have since tried my best to remove. And secondly even after having watched others fold them several times I realized I have no idea how to "start" the folding from the inner side of the legs. In the end I got worried that they would end up creased badly by me folding them wrong and leaving them for months, so I have hung them which - I hope - will preserve the pleats.

Re: Tozando Hakama?
 

As I mentioned before, you might consider marking the inside of each pleat with either a spot of white paint or a small white stitch of thread. By the inside of the pleat, I mean the very bottom of the hakama where it is hemmed. If you use the thread, keep it on the inside of the hakama. If you use the white paint, use only the tiniest spot possible. The pleats are anchored at the top of the hakama as you mentioned, so if you identify the position at the bottom you will find it easier to fold the hakama and to maintain the pleats after washing.