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aiorr 03-12-2014 07:56 PM

Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
There are several ladies in our dojo that have small hands. They have trouble getting a good ikkyo when guys (such as myself) with large hands are uke. They have resorted to grabbing fingers and wrenching on them. Does anyone know of a tips for getting an ikkyo with small hands?

Thank you in advance.

phitruong 03-13-2014 05:25 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
i usually tell my folks to stop being so grabby. don't grab. think of arms as sword. sword cuts. watch Endo sensei's hands. he doesn't like to grab.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxBVgN8pwU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkA8uA_kwyA

Also, grabs meant your arms are locked, i.e. useless for striking or doing other stuffs if uke decides to do something else.

Carsten Möllering 03-13-2014 05:31 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
hehehe
Wanted to post the same vids. :-)

We don't grab when doing ikkyo.

lbb 03-13-2014 07:20 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Having small hands creates tremendous initial frustration, as people tell you to "stay connected" and "keep holding" -- your instinctive response is to grip and grab. What helped me most with ikkyo was seeing someone demonstrate the rolling-over of the wrists that you don't want to have happen at the end of the pin, and that WILL happen if you have small hands and try to grab at the beginning of the technique. That, and seeing other people with small hands do it correctly and effectively.

As for grabbing fingers, if it's deliberate, I'd put a stop to it in a hurry. Explain to the people doing it that it's borderline escalation (maybe not so borderline at that), and you really don't want to escalate the situation in partner practice. Someone's gonna get hurt and it may not be who you think.

SteveTrinkle 03-13-2014 12:39 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
my understanding is that ikkyo is more about proper entering than about grabbing, so good luck in your further training

robin_jet_alt 03-13-2014 04:37 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 335825)
i usually tell my folks to stop being so grabby. don't grab. think of arms as sword. sword cuts. watch Endo sensei's hands. he doesn't like to grab.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxBVgN8pwU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkA8uA_kwyA

Also, grabs meant your arms are locked, i.e. useless for striking or doing other stuffs if uke decides to do something else.

Phi beat me to it as well :D

aiorr 03-13-2014 08:05 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Thank you everyone for the input.
Looking at the video link provided, I see what you are saying. That would be a good response to a shomenuchi or Yokomenuchi, but what about katatetori or katatori where you want to transition into a nikyo or ikkyo, (ura or omote). There will be (at least in my Aikido exposure) a need to "grasp" (without "grabbing") the back of the hand to control the wrist and direct the center of the uke. The scenario I posed is especially problematic for small hands if trying to do the technique dynamically.

I was trying to find a video I and seen of Saito Sensei, but could not locate it. Here's the closest thing I could find that would demonstrate my question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QwNKF3iE8k

How would "not grabbing" in your example apply here?
Thank you for your patience!

lbb 03-14-2014 12:07 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Don't grab, don't grasp...project and cut?

phitruong 03-14-2014 12:36 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Ikeda sensei shown the process at the beginning of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB6FJ-Via9U the hand on top isn't grabbing. he gave a number of ideas to try.

more idea from Endo sensei http://vimeo.com/45046265

you got shoulders, hips, legs, the whole body, why focus on the hands?

question for you, what are the commonalities of the two sensei aikido?

Riai Maori 03-15-2014 02:30 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Adam Orr wrote: (Post 335851)
I was trying to find a video I and seen of Saito Sensei, but could not locate it. Here's the closest thing I could find that would demonstrate my question.

Here is Stanly Pranin explanation on Ikkyo. Lots of grabbing going on here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTN7ZqcGuLM#t=11

Reference is made to Morihei Ueshiba's 1938 technical manual "Budo" where Morihei Ueshiba stresses that, in this technique, nage initiates the encounter counter to common practice today. The reasons for this are explained in the video.:)

robin_jet_alt 03-16-2014 10:16 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
When Pranin teaches, it creates an interesting conundrum. He is an exceptional researcher and historian and when I listen to what he says, I agree wholeheartedly with everything. On the other hand, he is not able to use his body effectively, and he does not effectively demonstrate what he talks about. I think the best thing to do is to "do as he says, not as he does". In this case, I don't think he ever talks about 'being grabby'; he just does it.

Carl Thompson 03-17-2014 02:46 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Adam Orr wrote: (Post 335851)
There will be (at least in my Aikido exposure) a need to "grasp" (without "grabbing") the back of the hand to control the wrist and direct the center of the uke. The scenario I posed is especially problematic for small hands if trying to do the technique dynamically.

Hello Adam

I think that for some practitioners, even those situations would be done with little or no contact, not even "grasping", but you know better than any of us what your needs are for the way training is conducted in your dojo.

Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 335885)
When Pranin teaches, it creates an interesting conundrum. He is an exceptional researcher and historian and when I listen to what he says, I agree wholeheartedly with everything. On the other hand, he is not able to use his body effectively, and he does not effectively demonstrate what he talks about. I think the best thing to do is to "do as he says, not as he does". In this case, I don't think he ever talks about 'being grabby'; he just does it.

Last year Inagaki Shihan did an interview with Aikido Tankyu (a magazine published by the Aikikai Hombu Dojo) in which he said the same thing that most instructors who trained with the founder in "the birthplace of aikido" have said:

Quote:

Osensei's teaching method began first with tai-no-henko and when starting from katatedori, we would continuously do kanrenwaza (related techniques) from katatedori, and rather than "ki-no-nagare" (flowing techniques), Osensei would make grabbing strongly the centre of the practice.
...assuming my translation is correct of course.:)

Inagaki and Isoyama sensei are (to me at least) actually very small old guys with tiny hands and my own meaty paws are much bigger than theirs. It never helped me and I was always baffled by how they could have me in vice-like grips, completely immobilising my whole body, while being so clearly relaxed and smaller than me. The emphasis from day one was always "kokyu power" and the exercises to transfer from regular strength to that "onaka no chikara" (inner power) involved a cathartic process of losing bad habits. I would say being female with smaller hands is almost an advantage in doing this since, when grabbed strongly, you simply cannot move a bigger person any other way.

When I tried an "Internal Power" style down in Tokyo, I found essentially the same principles in place for "Aiki-age": grabbing strongly and using kokyu to move rather than out-gripping or out-muscling an opponent. That guy was much smaller than me too, 65kg (143lb) to my 96kg (211lb), but I couldn't move when he grabbed me with his tiny hands. I was glad when I could move his students at least, one of whom was actually very much bigger and heavier than me.

For how-tos, I don't think written description on the internet would do it justice. I'd say get to a seminar or visit a teacher that does this kind of training.

All of these are a far cry from my experience with Endo sensei (admittedly, only one seminar, although I took ukemi for him a couple of times). I think what he is doing is a different training paradigm that I confess, I do not fully understand.

Carl

PeterR 03-17-2014 02:47 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Ive always considered Ikkyo a strike - grabbing only really comes into it at the finish

kewms 04-06-2014 12:46 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
As a person with small hands, my experience is that I need to be fairly precise in my hand positioning, which is something that comes with practice. Once my hands are in the correct location, though, grip size and strength don't really have much to do with it.

Katherine

Adam Huss 04-06-2014 04:50 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 335888)
Ive always considered Ikkyo a strike - grabbing only really comes into it at the finish

Interesting Mr. Rehse,

do you know where I can find an example of your version of ikkyo? I've been training aikido for 14 years, travel and train with all sorts of people, and just learned a new way of doing ikkyo at a non-affiliated dojo this weekend. I am interested in seeing what you are referencing to as well.

Thank you!

Adam

PS - Sorry for the derail.

Rely:
You can get away with variations of ikkyo just using your 'lobster claw' grip, as Toyoda Sensei used to call it, vice actually wrapping your fingers completely around use's elbow and wrist or hand.

Keith Larman 04-07-2014 09:21 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
FWIW as a guy who likes to visit other places. I keep my white belt in the front of my gear bag for those occasions.

My take over the years has been that there is some variation (surprise) in how ikkyo is done which results in some degree of difference in how the "grabbing" is done. Those styles which emphasize the kuzushi as the technique begins, especially leading out the arm, are more concerned with the connection through the arm to the center in which case the "grabbing" doesn't need to be particularly powerful, just "good enough" since so much is happening elsewhere. I've been to other places where the technique seems to initiate in the hand itself "winding up" through the arm (think a really static start with uke on balance) in which case a good grip is pretty much required. And everything in between.

Anyway, I guess my point is that these sorts of discussions reminds me of discussions about how things are done on a computer. How you do things depends to a great extent on the design and implementation of the operating system underneath the hood. So what works on this machine won't work on that machine. And you have to be careful not to confuse the two. The terminal on a UNIX box has similar but different commands to the DOS box on a windows machine. And how you do some stuff differs depending on whether you have a 1 button, 2 button or 3 button mouse.

The assumptions "under the hood" drive the way the technique is done.How you do it (comparing one to the other) is not an issue of "right" or "wrong", but a question of matching up the correct versions to the underlying assumptions.

fwiw.

hughrbeyer 04-07-2014 10:18 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Katherine, knowing where you practice and how, I would have thought that a strong grip and precise hand position were mattering less and less these days. Not so?

kewms 04-07-2014 11:09 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Hugh Beyer wrote: (Post 336233)
Katherine, knowing where you practice and how, I would have thought that a strong grip and precise hand position were mattering less and less these days. Not so?

As I said, grip strength doesn't have much to do with it.

As for hand position, it depends on what I'm trying to accomplish. If I want to demonstrate a technically accurate sankyo, then yes, I need to place my hands fairly precisely. If I just want to take the person down in a sankyo-like way, there's a bit more leeway.

Remember, all the people I normally practice with train at the same dojo I do and are working on the same things. So with people at my own level or above, I need to get most aspects of a technique right, both the visible, body/hand positioning aspects and the less visible, energetic components. With more junior people, obviously, I can get away with more.

When there's a big hand size difference, there's usually also a big strength difference. Obviously the whole idea is to use a line where the person's strength is irrelevant, but getting there does, as I said, require precision.

Katherine

PeterR 04-07-2014 11:16 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 336220)
Interesting Mr. Rehse,

do you know where I can find an example of your version of ikkyo? I've been training aikido for 14 years, travel and train with all sorts of people, and just learned a new way of doing ikkyo at a non-affiliated dojo this weekend. I am interested in seeing what you are referencing to as well.

Not so sure I can find a video about that but I do Shodokan/Tomiki Aikido and within the fabled Junanahon there are two variations of ikkyo, one concentrating on the wrist and the other the forearm. Both require a particular grip. However, some of the basic drills involve a two handed block of a yokomen strike which easily becomes ikkyo as does a similar block to a rising shomenuchi strike. It is just that in my opinion the essence of ikkyo is reflected in the striking variations.

We also have a series of suwariwaza ikkyo in the kyu grade syllabus where the first point of contact is a strike controlling the arm - not a block since usually the arm is rising not decending.

robin_jet_alt 04-07-2014 06:36 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 336220)
Interesting Mr. Rehse,

do you know where I can find an example of your version of ikkyo? I've been training aikido for 14 years, travel and train with all sorts of people, and just learned a new way of doing ikkyo at a non-affiliated dojo this weekend. I am interested in seeing what you are referencing to as well.

Thank you!

Adam

PS - Sorry for the derail.

Rely:
You can get away with variations of ikkyo just using your 'lobster claw' grip, as Toyoda Sensei used to call it, vice actually wrapping your fingers completely around use's elbow and wrist or hand.

Neither of these is exactly the way we practice, but you can see in both instances, the teacher makes a cutting motion towards uke to get them off balance and does not grab until the end (this is less apparent with Tissier's ura, but you get the idea).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0TPWL-bhY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiEY4T7yli8

Adam Huss 04-07-2014 08:21 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
I forgot Shodokan is the proper name for Tomiki Aikido - makes more sense now. Hard to find Shodokan dojo around, I've only been able to train at one in Columbus, OH.

Thank you for the clips, Robin Boyd.

Here is a video of a Yoshinkan variation of ikkyo from katatori. Uke's grabbing hand is kept attached to the body, while nage's "cut" arm cuts against the elbow, vice griping. Thought it was thread rely, at least to some extent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GeoL-4O_nA

Adam Huss 04-07-2014 08:31 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 336246)
Neither of these is exactly the way we practice, but you can see in both instances, the teacher makes a cutting motion towards uke to get them off balance and does not grab until the end (this is less apparent with Tissier's ura, but you get the idea).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0TPWL-bhY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiEY4T7yli8

Our training is very specific when we actually grab use's hand...to make a vast generalization, we never reach to grab for a part of uke - we wait until momentum caries it to our center. For example: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/aoe72ldbk...l-M2U01245.MPG

robin_jet_alt 04-07-2014 11:56 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 336247)
I forgot Shodokan is the proper name for Tomiki Aikido - makes more sense now. Hard to find Shodokan dojo around, I've only been able to train at one in Columbus, OH.

Thank you for the clips, Robin Boyd.

Here is a video of a Yoshinkan variation of ikkyo from katatori. Uke's grabbing hand is kept attached to the body, while nage's "cut" arm cuts against the elbow, vice griping. Thought it was thread rely, at least to some extent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GeoL-4O_nA

Nice find. I don't do Yoshinkan, but THAT is how we practice it.

sakumeikan 04-08-2014 10:26 AM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 335856)
Ikeda sensei shown the process at the beginning of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB6FJ-Via9U the hand on top isn't grabbing. he gave a number of ideas to try.

more idea from Endo sensei http://vimeo.com/45046265

you got shoulders, hips, legs, the whole body, why focus on the hands?

question for you, what are the commonalities of the two sensei aikido?

Dear Phi,
On the clip you have posted I reckon the Uke must have been ready to lie down on the mat.Look at the direction of the head.If ever an Uke was anxious nay willing to bite the dust , this gent was. As far as holding /grabbing /grasping UKes hand is concerned during the waza, the thing to do is to prevent uke from releasing his grip . I do not advocate brute strength during the process but you cannot always be dainty.T he way some guys use the digits its a wonder they can even crush a grape. Both Endo /Ikeda Senseis are examples of what you might call the 'soft' school of aikido as portrayed by Yamaguchi Sensei.Not quite in the mould of Tada, Arikawa, Shioda .cheers, Joe

Michael Douglas 04-12-2014 12:35 PM

Re: Ikkyo with Small Hands
 
Quote:

Adam Orr wrote: (Post 335823)
There are several ladies in our dojo that have small hands. They have trouble getting a good ikkyo when guys (such as myself) with large hands are uke. They have resorted to grabbing fingers and wrenching on them. ..

Hell yeah!
There was this little bloke who really made a thing of this : I think he was called Ueshiba.
Don't try to stop your ladies from being effective from some aikibunny concept of doing it right.


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