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-   -   Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23445)

Sojourner 02-26-2014 06:07 AM

Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
Greetings all, I have come across this short video and at 0.31 through to 0.44 she does three knife disarms, this looks like Aikido to me but due to my limited knowledge of forms past the first and second in Aikido I can not place it and am wondering if anyone in here may recognize what it is?

The other question that I have is that at 1:21 a chap produces a pistol and she is able to disarm the pistol from the chap using her marital arts training, do you know if this kind of training against guns is included the Aikido curriculum? I know that we do knife attacks, but am not sure about firearms defenses?

http://youtu.be/QNmhKcFjbkg

Millsy 02-26-2014 06:59 AM

Re: Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
Ben,

If you look into the history of Hapkido, you'll see the founder supposedly studied Daito-Ryu Aikijujitsu with Takeda (so shares those roots with Aikido) and that Hapkido is a korean version of Daito-Ryu. I vaguely remember their is some controversy about this, that there is some doubt about whether a Korean would have been allowed to study with Takeda at the time and I don't think his name appears on a roll, so I say supposedly but I think the roots seem to be obviously there somehow. I could be corrected about that :)

Equivalent Aikido forms in the video, I'd say: the first looks like sankyo and then kote geashi and finally something like a shiho nage variation. Later is sankyo again and kote geashi with the gun.

As for guns, I've never trained gun disarming in Australia, but in the USA, with guns more common, I have done a little here. Remember though you may train tanto, sword and jo disarming in the dojo, but this could easily be a broken bottle, lump of wood or bar stool, any weapon from a few inches to a few feet long really. I had one sensei tell me that in his Shodan tests, his sensei was feeling particularly adventurous and bought out a shotgun and made him do disarming techniques, unloaded of course ... I hope :).

Want some real fun, if you have a naginata handy try doing some disarming, naginata dori, with that. Talk about adjusting your ma-ai and irimi! :)

Riai Maori 02-26-2014 10:32 AM

Re: Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
I think the last Pistol disarm 1:21 is Gokyu then Kote Gaeshi.

Cliff Judge 02-26-2014 11:24 AM

Re: Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
Aikido really doesn't have any original waza. Anything you might see that "looks effective" in and of itself, particularly, has been done before in other systems.

What is interesting if you look at older jujutsu systems and such from the perspective of Aikido's basic waza is that you might be looking at three or four techniques in the other system, that a practitioner of that system might not regard as being the same thing, but in Aikido they are all slight variations of ikkyo, for example, or kotegaeshi.

Kotegaeshi in particular is absolutely omnipresent across multiple cultures and systems. It seems like as soon as we learned to chisel stones to have a sharp edge, we learned to take the slack out of that hand, move to where the other hand can't hit us, and break the arm or throw the person.

I can't dig up a citation right now but I think the idea that the founder of Hapkido trained with Takeda has been pretty much shown to be false.

PeterR 02-26-2014 12:13 PM

Re: Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
As Cliff points out there are no techniques that are uniquely aikido although as a body you can say aikido or judo or ....

Gun disarms as a kata I can think of Judo's Goshin Kata but that itself has a strong aikido influence via Tomiki. Strangely I always disliked this kata mainly due to the glacial speed of how Judo kata tend to be performed. I saw it recently at speed and it looked good.

Krystal Locke 02-26-2014 02:15 PM

Re: Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
Quote:

Ben White wrote: (Post 335535)
Greetings all, I have come across this short video and at 0.31 through to 0.44 she does three knife disarms, this looks like Aikido to me but due to my limited knowledge of forms past the first and second in Aikido I can not place it and am wondering if anyone in here may recognize what it is?

The other question that I have is that at 1:21 a chap produces a pistol and she is able to disarm the pistol from the chap using her marital arts training, do you know if this kind of training against guns is included the Aikido curriculum? I know that we do knife attacks, but am not sure about firearms defenses?

http://youtu.be/QNmhKcFjbkg

I am curious about what you mean by the first and second forms of aikido. Ikkyo, ikkajo, nikkyo, nikkajo? All can refer to different things between aikido and other Japanese aiki styles. Can you describe these forms and maybe tell us about your experience with aikido? Style and length of time training?

On one level, weapon disarms are just weapon disarms. Why is a fake knife any different than a fake gun, but what are the similarities and differences in dealing with (real) knife vs (real) gun vs naginata vs a jab vs a kick? What I am getting at is that aikido might not be a collection of techniques but a toolbox of concepts. Like Millsy said, ma-ai and irimi are good things to think about. Much better in my opinion than thinking about how to do kotegaeshi, or "the first technique".

Marie Noelle Fequiere 02-26-2014 02:25 PM

Re: Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
She used her marital training? Wow, I feel for her husband :D

Honestly, there is only so many things that he human body can do, so yes, different martial arts tend to overlap each other. You are right, it looks a lot like Aikido.

Riai Maori 02-26-2014 02:42 PM

Re: Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote: (Post 335548)
I am curious about what you mean by the first and second forms of aikido.

I think he is referring to being a 3 Kyu like me. I am currently learning this knife disarm for my 2 Kyu grading.

Sojourner 02-26-2014 05:13 PM

Re: Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote: (Post 335548)
I am curious about what you mean by the first and second forms of aikido. Ikkyo, ikkajo, nikkyo, nikkajo? All can refer to different things between aikido and other Japanese aiki styles. Can you describe these forms and maybe tell us about your experience with aikido? Style and length of time training?

Hi Krystal, I have trained in Aikido for around 9 months now, I am a white belt and I have never taken a grading in Aikido, my training has been interrupted twice by surgeries for me and my daughter. My background is that I formerly trained in Krav Maga and I made the decision 9 months ago to leave Krav training and move to Aikido, it is a long story, but essentially I had become concerned that Krav training was changing my personality and Aikido came across my pathway and I began to study the philiosphies of O Sensei and it just clicked with me and I realised that Aikido was where I needed to be and its a decision I do not regret one bit to this day. I dont dislike Krav its just that the door for Krav has closed and I have moved on to Aikido.

That said I find Aikdo really difficult at times, it is very hard not to muscle through the techniques and to rely on strength rather than correct technique as a default position, my Sensei recognizes this and has put me onto "Tai Sabaki" with a broom handle and instructions about being "Centered" and this is really starting to help as I work on using that as the basis for the required forms.

In terms of the first grading they are looking for the first two forms, I gather that there are 20+ forms in Aikido, so this is grabs to the right hand and left hand if that makes any sense? The grabs are then repelled with Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Techinage, Shionage, Kaitenage, Iriminage and Kotegashi (spelling is mine from memory) Gokyo is demonstrated but not taught at this level.

I find that the first set I can just about manage okay, but when I have to change arms I tend to get confused, yet I recognize that it is all about practice and I have seen some good improvements over the time that I have been there. The Dojo also teaches Atemi-Jujitsu as well as Aikido and students are generally graded in both. So practice nights will contain both Aikido training as well as time spent training in Atemi Jujitsu.

lbb 02-27-2014 08:26 AM

Re: Identification of Aikido forms in other martial art system?
 
Quote:

Ben White wrote: (Post 335561)
In terms of the first grading they are looking for the first two forms, I gather that there are 20+ forms in Aikido, so this is grabs to the right hand and left hand if that makes any sense? The grabs are then repelled with Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Techinage, Shionage, Kaitenage, Iriminage and Kotegashi (spelling is mine from memory) Gokyo is demonstrated but not taught at this level.

It sounds like your style of aikido (or maybe association or your dojo) is formalizing sequences of attacks and techniques in a way that other styles don't -- they're all a little different, and insofar as a style or association considers an attack-defense to be a kata or form, I'm sure they all use different numbers for them. That's a long-winded way of saying that we don't really know what you mean by "first two forms". I train at a Birankai dojo, and Birankai uses a combination of the attack name (katatedori aihanmi, katatedori gyakuhanmi, ryotedori, etc.) and the waza name (ikkyo, nikkyo, whatever). Thus, "katatedori aihanmi ikkyo" would be how a test criterion would be specified for us -- there aren't any numbers. Each association has its own criteria for testing, so it's not just the terminology that is different, it's the stuff the terminology refers to as well.


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