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-   -   Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23240)

Sojourner 12-26-2013 03:36 AM

Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Greetings All,

I have been studying the formation of Krav Maga, What I have learnt is that it was created by Imi Litchtenfeld who was both a boxer and a wrestler. Following the end of WW2 and the creation of the nation of Israel, Imi continued to develop Krav with Aikido, with the help of his top student Eli Avikzar, Eli was the first person to ever be granted a black belt in Krav Maga and he was also a black belt in Aikido as was the recipient of the second black belt in Krav Maga Raphy Elrissi.

I have come across this video which features some Krav Maga done at the top level and I would like to try and examine some of it with the assistance of some qualified Aikido people to cast their eye over it to see if you can see the lineage of Aikido in Krav or not? Clearly there is going to be thousands of different moves and so forth and you will never capture as good a sample as you might like in any given video, yet I did think that this one was reasonably representative of some of the different types of moves in Krav, especially around the weapon disarms towards the end of the clip.

Please feel welcome to share your thoughts good bad or indifferent, I have trained in Krav before but have chosen Aikido for various reasons, none of which reflect badly on Krav which I still enjoy, I just find that Aikido is a far better fit for me where I am at the moment.

http://youtu.be/IjmBPFPTq-g

Cliff Judge 12-26-2013 08:17 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Quote:

Ben White wrote: (Post 333645)
Greetings All,

I have been studying the formation of Krav Maga, What I have learnt is that it was created by Imi Litchtenfeld who was both a boxer and a wrestler. Following the end of WW2 and the creation of the nation of Israel, Imi continued to develop Krav with Aikido, with the help of his top student Eli Avikzar, Eli was the first person to ever be granted a black belt in Krav Maga and he was also a black belt in Aikido as was the recipient of the second black belt in Krav Maga Raphy Elrissi.

I have come across this video which features some Krav Maga done at the top level and I would like to try and examine some of it with the assistance of some qualified Aikido people to cast their eye over it to see if you can see the lineage of Aikido in Krav or not? Clearly there is going to be thousands of different moves and so forth and you will never capture as good a sample as you might like in any given video, yet I did think that this one was reasonably representative of some of the different types of moves in Krav, especially around the weapon disarms towards the end of the clip.

Please feel welcome to share your thoughts good bad or indifferent, I have trained in Krav before but have chosen Aikido for various reasons, none of which reflect badly on Krav which I still enjoy, I just find that Aikido is a far better fit for me where I am at the moment.

http://youtu.be/IjmBPFPTq-g

There was a straight-in iriminage in that clip, that was most likely from Aikido.

Kevin Leavitt 12-26-2013 08:44 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
I don't know that you can tell lineage from looking at a video. The human body only moves in so many ways, so many styles will look very similar. Aikido is a methodology for teach Aiki. So, you'd have to look at the complete pedagogy really to see how similarities. I think looking at the physical execution of techniques is not very telling. Yes, there tends to be stylism expresses, especially in systems that make assumptions about what is correct or incorrect movements or techniques according to their particular paradigm.

For example, I'm a aikidoka and a bjjer....when working under the constraints of those systems, I tend to adopt stylistic mannerisms that are deemed appropriate for that environment, although, I remain informed by my other experiences. In a combatives environment, I may employ various techniques or responses that are simply efficient or appropriate. You might see elements of iriminage or takedowns from Judo, or kicks from Muay Thai. Why? because the body only moves in so many ways and we begin to gravitate to patterns of usefulness and efficiency.

So, I'd say if the individual studied a system in the past, it is safe to say he was informed by that system in someway. However, if the transmission is second hand, that is, he has never studied the actual system, then you might still see elements if they were incorporated in that system. For me, it all depends on the Pedagogy of instruction and transmission.

Hope this makes sense!

LuvAikido 12-26-2013 09:46 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Krav Maga is a form of mma, it is a mixture of martial arts, lots of Muay Thai, and bits and pices of other stuff. Mostly created for fast learning and as some would think effective ways to defend self in combat situation. It is none traditional, I am avoiding calling it a martial art, since the "art" pice is missing from this " combat style fighting".

I have studied and taken Krav Maga, it was not what I was looking for. Majority of it is common sence and i found it to be not effective in a way that I would like my martial art to be effective. Very many techniques I found to be awkward and a good way to get killed.

This is my experience. For quick learning I found Japanese jiujitsu to be the best choice for me, it just feels natural and makes lots of sence, for long term and personal development I am studying aikido. Both aikido and jiujitsu go hand in hand and if you really want to expand your horizons and get into ground work there is always judo.

I think, from personal experience, Krav Maga is a big marketing gimic.

sakumeikan 12-26-2013 11:06 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Hi Folks,
There are elements of waza which loosely resemble aikido.These include a few such as Sankajo, Irimi nage , kote gaeshi, Alongside this ar various acrobatic defence work, plus a never ending amount of punching and kicking.The instructor is a fit lad, his partners a bit compliant.At the end of the day you choose this type of stuff or you study the way of aikido.Its personal choice.
Not my cup of tea, the demos were somewhat frantic for my taste.Maybe the Israeli touch plus a exotic name[Krav Maga ] acts as a magnet to/for would be secret agents eg Mossad employment agencies??Jusy my tuppence worth , Cheers, Joe

Kevin Leavitt 12-26-2013 01:04 PM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
I can understand why people think the KM is a marketing gimic. It certainly can be, as much as any other Martial Art has it's attractants.

I think KM does a good job in certain areas. Not areas I am in need of or have a desire to study. However, it does impart a necessary element in martial training that is lacking and that is the ability to make quick decisive, forward, violent decisions to gain control of a fight and win. This is not something that is necessarily present in everyone, and frankly I think it is a necessary part if you ever intend to employ combatives, or self defense.

Do I believe it is a 20 year study? I think that depends on your instructor. there are KM instructors out there, one of my best friends, that has a background as a BJJ Black Belt, and Army Combatives Instructor, Judo and a few other arts.

He feels KM offers some very good skills in a very methodical way that allows you to make some rapid gains in a short amount of time.

LuvAikido 12-26-2013 02:33 PM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
From my conversations with students at the time when I tried it out, your progress totally depends on your personal ability. One guy was still in beginner level and he's been there for 1 year and another one was 3rd level advance and he was there for 8 months.

I don't remember what all these levels mean.

Definitely not my cup of tea....just seems so tasteless... But perhaps this is what your looking for.

I prefer to have full control of my opponent vs. beating him aimlessly, plus I'm a very small woman, therefore brutal beating is not something I feel comfortable with. Aikido and jiujitsu on the other hand is what I feel confident in.

It's definetely a personal choice that no one can make for you. Depends on what you are looking for in martial art/combat style and on what suits you better as a person. Try both for a few months and see for your self.

Kevin Leavitt 12-26-2013 03:14 PM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Oksana, definitely not my cup of tea either. I agree about desiring to have full control of your opponent...it is definitely the ideal situation of where we want to go. We do need to consider the whole spectrum of violence versus control. One end of the spectrum we have no control on the other total control.

On the end of "no control" our choice are limited by any number of factors and the objective is to gain control. That requires a certain violence of action that I think Krav Maga does a fairly good job of inculcating the instincts necessary to take decisive and violent action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wby1vUy8aYI

I think this video does a good job of demonstrating several phases of a fight from the initial processing of what is happening, to the eventual decision to engage quickly and decisively. A great example of her processing what is happening and then in a split second she takes decisive and violent action. Her actions overwhelm her opponent and he ends up in the fetal position and his "plan" was foiled. It is not until his buddy arrives again that the situation changes again.

So, did she demonstrate adequate control or not? Was her choices ethical? did she hit the limit of control and exceed past that? what if the "buddy" had not shown up, at what point might she have stopped?

Sure what you study is a personal choice. But in a fight, or SD situation your choices are typically limited. For me, it is not about style or preference, but about surviving, turning the tables, seizing the initiative, and gaining control. KM IMO does a good job of training the willingness to engage in a fight at the decisive moment. It provides a certain conditioning process that many simply are not willing or capable to do as our societies and human nature is has conditioned us to not do this. So, I think it is not so much about choice, but understanding the limits of the choices or control we really do have in violent encounters.

I think the better understanding we have of the complete spectrum of violence vs control the better informed we can be when we do have choices.

It could be that someone with different training might have responded differently and maybe executed a slightly different strategy. Maybe the smart thing was to let go of the purse, maybe she was lucky the buddy didn't club the crap out of her. I will agree with that for sure! We don't know and it doesn't matter to me, she made a decision and moved out on it. Decisions are like that in the spur of the moment and we make the decisions we make with the information we have at the time, and we certainly default to the level of our training!

I certainly believe that KM practitioners will train in a narrow band of the spectrum of control/violence...however I would also submit the exact opposite narrow band is also trained by others in arts like Aikido. One end typically assumes no control/violence...the other end typically assumes high degree of control/less violence. (At least in how they are trained...that is pedagogy). Most certainly we spend a great deal of time in Aikido on termination criteria and constrained use of force. I very important part of the spectrum as well.

However, KM also addresses a very important part of the spectrum that typically must occur first before we can constrain our force, and it is that point of the combative environment that they do very well.

For me, it is not so much about it being a personal choice, but recognizing the realities. I think this is true probably even more so for a small woman that has lost the initiative and is behind the "eight ball". I can appreciate it not being something that you are comfortable with, but I recommend to anyone serious about SD to spend sometime in this area.

It can certainly be intimidating and a huge cultural shock walking into such a seemingly testosterone charged "go, go, go" environment. I also appreciate that people learn at different rates and different ways, and the KM method may not be for everyone! I think that is really what is key here. I also don't think that someone needs to "master" a system such as KM to gain these insights. You could spend a few months or a year doing KM, then move on once you feel comfortable that you have a better understanding of your "set points".

Again, not my cup of tea getting kneed in the face from a thai clinch 3 days a week repetitively! Mastered that, time to move on!

I'd just make sure that if you have a concern in SD that those that care, spend at least some time "pressure testing" your "combative nature" to "fight back" if necessary!

Demetrio Cereijo 12-26-2013 05:18 PM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 333692)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wby1vUy8aYI

I think this video does a good job of demonstrating several phases of a fight from the initial processing of what is happening, to the eventual decision to engage quickly and decisively. A great example of her processing what is happening and then in a split second she takes decisive and violent action. Her actions overwhelm her opponent and he ends up in the fetal position and his "plan" was foiled. It is not until his buddy arrives again that the situation changes again.

Agree, but the video was staged.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGMopBpkWFk

ze'ev erlich 12-26-2013 11:14 PM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
There are some Aikido techniques and training methods in Krav-Maga.
The founder of Krav Maga - the Late Imi Lichtenfeld. He did not learn Aikido, but one of his top disciples (the Late Mr. Eli Avikzar) went to France, where he learned Aikido and obtained the rank of Shodan. After he returned to Israel, he taught his Krav Maga students and other instructors some Aikido techniques and methods. He named those techniques in Hebrew...

I hope this information is helpful.

Michael Varin 12-27-2013 01:24 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
There are techniques in krav maga that definitely resemble the waza of aikido. Aikido actually has a surprising amount of techniques that work well in a weapons support/disarming context. Surprise?

What I do not typically see in krav maga is aiki itself. They attack with their techniques, which means they are somewhat inappropriate and can be countered. If done correctly, aiki doesn't allow for that. One big benefit to the training is that they do not shy away from higher intensity levels. This tends to be lacking in many, if not most, aikido dojo.

Cliff Judge 12-27-2013 08:56 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Quote:

Michael Varin wrote: (Post 333711)
One big benefit to the training is that they do not shy away from higher intensity levels. This tends to be lacking in many, if not most, aikido dojo.

I find the lack of high-volume Limp Bizkit and Drowning Pool pumped into my Aikido dojo to be the opposite of disturbing. :D

Kevin Leavitt 12-27-2013 09:29 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
lol...Cliff! Nice.

Michael Varin 12-27-2013 11:30 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Funny. I've always found a beautiful kakemono, an elegant ikebana arrangement, a portrait of Ueshiba Morihei, and the subtle smell of incense are complimented so nicely by "Let the bodies hit the floor." Adds just the right touch. ;)

LuvAikido 12-27-2013 11:53 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Quote:

Michael Varin wrote: (Post 333726)
Funny. I've always found a beautiful kakemono, an elegant ikebana arrangement, a portrait of Ueshiba Morihei, and the subtle smell of incense are complimented so nicely by "Let the bodies hit the floor." Adds just the right touch. ;)

Lol.....I like it!

Rupert Atkinson 12-27-2013 11:59 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
I did Aikido with Jujutsu and Jujutsu with Aikido, if you know what I mean, for many years. The two are inseparable. In fact, when you separate them you have little to nothing (in terms of effectiveness). The most amazing thing for me about that vid is that many of the waza looked like what I learned in the British Jujutsu Association in the 1980s. I was quite surprised as I have seen KM several times and never thought that before. Generally though, the skill and fitness of KM guys is way above that of most arts. So yes, lots of Aikido type stuff in there, but Aikido is not limited to waza. There was no Aikido intent/mind in that vid, nor was there much aiki. But I liked it (except the stupid music).

This is more interesting training to me - far more real, in fact as far as I can tell, it is real: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4

Shadowfax 12-27-2013 04:26 PM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Lots of martial arts have techniques that look like aikido technique shapes. But is it aikido? Is it the shape of the techniquie that makes it aikido? Or is it something else that those other arts maybe don't have that makes it aikido?

Just a few questions to consider.

LuvAikido 12-27-2013 06:58 PM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Quote:

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: (Post 333734)
Lots of martial arts have techniques that look like aikido technique shapes. But is it aikido? Is it the shape of the techniquie that makes it aikido? Or is it something else that those other arts maybe don't have that makes it aikido?

Just a few questions to consider.

Exactly!

Michael Varin 12-27-2013 11:18 PM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 333729)

This is more interesting training to me - far more real, in fact as far as I can tell, it is real: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4

Fun video. Solid footwork and very good head movement. The only flaw I saw, and I'm being picky, is that he takes himself out of position more often than he probably needs to..

And, yes. I would say that is "real." Although, it is worth noting that the punchers are all in a jovial mood, too.

Kevin Leavitt 12-28-2013 12:00 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
What I got out of this was not so much the fact that his bob and weave techniques worked, but the fact that sociologically, every single person agreed to the rules he established and every single one of them adopted a boxers paradigm on how they approached the fight. that was stand in place, plant, throw a punch or combos. Really all he had to do was stay slightly out of range.

I would have maybe done this a little differently. Knowing that he wasn't going to hit back, I'd rush him with my body making sure that he could not recover, trip him up then, then while he was down or recovering balance beat the crap out of his head.

I think it is interesting how rules and paradigms on acceptable behavior play out in society! Fun stuff for sure.

I have a similar experiment I do with Soldiers and Marines with Pugil sticks. I tell them how to win every time. You throw your stick down once you make contact, grab your opponent's stick, wrestle it from him and then proceed to beat the crap out of him once you have him on the ground. Of course, drill instructors hate this as it is not the rules of pugil stick fighitng, and it is not a fair fight, but it proves a point about paradigms and agreed upon rules and how they affect how we see problem sets and how they can influence our outcomes.

jonreading 12-30-2013 08:37 AM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
I like Krav. It's a short-duration education and training process intended to create combat-readiness. The stressing, the conditioning and the techniques are straight-forward. We have a Krav group in our dojo and I like many things about the instructor's program.

That said, I see very little aiki in the system. However, given the intended duration of the training period and a goal oriented around preparing for combat, I would find a 10-year topic of pursuit to not be part of the curriculum, nor the un-reasonable duration of many of our aikido techniques, nor the rather large use of movement and space we see in aikido. There are only so many ways to damage the human body [efficiently]. Most good combat systems use an overlapping collection of these techniques and avenues of attack and defense. I think it is far more likely the techniques in Krav distilled from effective combat movements, of which many resemble jujutsu techniques we also have in aikido. I think unless the founder admitted to aikido as a point of inspiration for his techniques, you are left with conjecture.
I believe we occasionally rage about the non-influence of Daito Ryu aiki jujutsu on aikido in a similar vein... Then there would next be the question about the level of competency the founder had in "Aiki" as to even claim he possessed it and intended to pass it on in Krav.

Also, I want to differentiate that combat ready is not necessarily fighting, but rather surviving a dangerous situation under fatigue, pain and duress. My Krav guy mentioned that statistically, there are several conditioning factors that significantly improve your chance of surviving combat; I think none of the top 5 included hand-to-hand combat. I believe wearing your helmet and body gear is #2, preceded by closing combat distance... Looks like running still tops the charts of survival...

FWIW

Sojourner 12-30-2013 07:05 PM

Re: Presence of Aikido in Krav Maga?
 
Thank you all for your comments lots to go through from there but heaps for me to work with anyway! Cheers!


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