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Cady Goldfield 12-03-2013 10:44 AM

Aikijujutsu
 
It used to be rare to find videos of functional aikijujutsu on the Internet, but they are starting to appear. For those interested in seeing the effects of aiki and its martial applications, here is a primer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PlxpWywLiY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIl5tE-do8Y

mathewjgano 12-03-2013 01:31 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332814)
It used to be rare to find videos of functional aikijujutsu on the Internet, but they are starting to appear. For those interested in seeing the effects of aiki and its martial applications, here is a primer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PlxpWywLiY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIl5tE-do8Y

Thank you, Cady! I haven't seen these ones yet, but I was recently enjoying some of his other videos. Do you know much about his history or lineage?

Demetrio Cereijo 12-03-2013 02:23 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332814)
For those interested in seeing the effects of aiki and its martial applications, here is a primer.

Saw them some time ago. Thanks.

Rupert Atkinson 12-03-2013 02:57 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
I think good Jujutsu looks like Aikido and good Aikido looks like Jujutsu.
I like the stuff on those vids. But what is that guy wearing! But heck - look at us in our pyjamas.

Cady Goldfield 12-03-2013 04:17 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Matt,
From what I have gleaned (and others have steered me toward) on the Internet, he is the former Edward J. Smith, AKA Edward Burns, AKA Tanemura Akahisa, and most recently Salahuddin Muh'min Mohammed. His past is... interesting to say the least. Not sure how much is verifiable; however, he does have aiki, and that's one of those black-and-white "ya gots it or ya don't" things.

Rupert, according to the various information out there, he is a recent convert to orthodox Islam and so wears the garb of Middle Eastern Muslim men.

sakumeikan 12-04-2013 12:56 AM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332826)
Matt,
From what I have gleaned (and others have steered me toward) on the Internet, he is the former Edward J. Smith, AKA Edward Burns, AKA Tanemura Akahisa, and most recently Salahuddin Muh'min Mohammed. His past is... interesting to say the least. Not sure how much is verifiable; however, he does have aiki, and that's one of those black-and-white "ya gots it or ya don't" things.

Rupert, according to the various information out there, he is a recent convert to orthodox Islam and so wears the garb of Middle Eastern Muslim men.

Dear Cady,
Must confess I know little about converting to Islam.Is it mandatory to have the Middle Eastern garb?Do all Muslim converts avoid wearing suits/tee shirts etc?What is his lineage?Found the stuff fairly interesting.Makes a change from ortodox Aikido.Cheers, Joe.

Cady Goldfield 12-04-2013 04:14 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Joe,
He has a rather eclectic and varied background, from what I can see. As for the customs of Islam, I suppose that the Internet harbors numerous information sites with varying degrees of objectivity and accuracy.

Aikibu 12-04-2013 07:49 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Nice. :)

NagaBaba 12-04-2013 08:54 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
I would say 'martial applications' is a wishful thinking here, this guy is living in some kind of big illusion.

Cady Goldfield 12-04-2013 09:40 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Szczepan,
Why is that? Please provide some clarification, based on your personal experiences and observations, to back up your opinion. That aside, I stated only that these are martial applications. Martial means that their intention is for some form of combat. Their effectiveness, or lack thereof, is subject to validation by testing under duress.

NagaBaba 12-05-2013 09:02 AM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Hi Cady,
What is commonly understood by martial application is something similar to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=rpBvW376E5E

I still would not call it big stress, just normal martial interaction.

now if you look closely on attacker behavior on this video and on two videos you provided you may find the answer for your questions :)

Cady Goldfield 12-05-2013 09:39 AM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 332873)
Hi Cady,
What is commonly understood by martial application is something similar to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=rpBvW376E5E

I still would not call it big stress, just normal martial interaction.

now if you look closely on attacker behavior on this video and on two videos you provided you may find the answer for your questions :)

Lol! That had to hurt.
Aiki body training is something that is "on" when you're fighting, and you must maintain it that way, so that it will be available not only for driving technique, but also for stabilizing your body and re-directing the attacker's force to the ground and back up into him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtxY3...ature=youtu.be
(basic "peng" and structure for absorbing and projecting force, Sam F.S. Chin)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS180RegUoc
(Alex Skalozub using internal body method via I Liq Chuan)

If the guy in the clip could do that, he would have had half a chance against that huge punching dude. :)

Or even this :) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt6MK...ature=youtu.be

Kevin Leavitt 12-05-2013 04:00 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Cady, I think the point Szczepan is making is that the conditions in every example you have given is demonstrated in tightly controlled conditions. At best, what is demonstrated in the videos you provide are conceptual possibilities. I don't have any issues with the IS skills of say Sam Chin as he has a very good reputation.

However, we can't really ascertain how well Sam Chin would do in a situation with an non cooperative attacker from the video provided. Why? because the IS skills that are demonstrated under very controlled conditions are at the points demonstrated here theorectical possibilities and also do not account for the many other aspects and dynamics that occur in a fight.

For example, if we look at OODA loops, which are completely factored out of everyone of these videos. We cannot see the affects that the ability of an attacker to affect time and space, and to overwhelm or disrupt the decision making process of Sam Chin. We don't know what Sam would do if faced with an opponent that has suprised Sam and we don't know how Sam might ACT under such pressure as he attempts to ORIENT on the situation and deal with it.

I am not saying that Sam could not do well. I don't know for sure how he would do. That is my point. I don't know, because I have not seen him or any of the examples given applied under such pressure.

So, please don't think I am accusing him of anything at all. Just saying, we don't know.

We can postulate, imagine, or hypothesize how IS skills might help Sam or any of us....but until we see it..it is simply that and we cannot jump to conclusions about how much these things might really help us in a fight.

In fights we don't get to control the uke or the knowledge that we have of what is coming at us. If we can do that and control the variables of training, then it really does become possible to form appropriate responses and actions with enough training over time.

A good example is to place a towel on your shoulder then ask your uke to grab it before you do. Most of the time, you can prevent him from grabbing it. Why? because you control the scenario and you have a set strategy for a response already mentally formed. The laws of simple human reaction time, dictate that you will most of the time win. However, now try it by introducing a new variable, such as saying your Social Security Number backwards while he tries to grab it. You will lose EVERYTIME. Why? because you have entered a new variable and it changes the conditions or algebra in the equation.

Fighting works the same way.

So what Szczepan is saying IMO, is that you cannot ascertain from any of the videos that you provided that this is "good martial application". I agree with him on that as all the videos are primarily done in a lecture format that assume quite a bit of control by the teacher and do not appear to account for the loss of that control.

Now, you know alot more about IS than I do, so I will not comment on the IS skills that are exhibited in these videos. I'll take your word for it that there is good IS being transmitted. However, I do not see good martial application being demonstrated in any of these videos as it does not account for the conditions that are present in fights.

Cady Goldfield 12-05-2013 04:28 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Kevin,
I understood Szczepan's point, and I agree with him and you that these are not "good martial applications." I was looking for clips that would show, at least somewhat, the cues that IS is being used to enhance the body's ability to manage force. The first clip is just that - a guy tries to apply force to Sam Chin, and is pulsed or bounced off. I have felt Sifu Chin. He has IS and aiki. When he first came to the U.S. back in the '90s, he took on all comers, and had posters all over NYC's Chinatown inviting anyone and everyone. A lot of tough people took him up on it. He has paid his dues. ;)

The second video shows some of his students (his senior student Alex Skalozub) and "grand-students" doing same in practice drills and demos, some of which have a higher level of stress applied. Yes, again the conditions are controlled, but my point there is that these students are able to maintain their "peng" even when in full mobility and response to another person.

The third clip was just for fun - to show that even someone who is not combat-trained can do "something" that can take a large person's punch off-line. If a young girl can do this -- albeit against rhythmic, non-killer punches, yet still incoming punches -- imagine how a fighter could implement these basic internal skills to gain an advantage against the committed puncher in Szczepan's clip. The defender in his clip... had nuthin'.

Kevin Leavitt 12-05-2013 04:33 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Cady,

I hope I am not too over critical of all this. I respect your hard work and opinions. Frankly I am working on some methodologies for training right now so I am hyper focused on this stuff and I am probably a little myopic and over critical in my view points at this time.

My work is centering around developing a framework to accurately assess good and bad martial models. If we can pinpoint the elements of fighting and place them in a framework, then we can begin to assess the various aspects of what constitutes "appropriate" training and inappropriate training.

For example, these videos may well be appropriate for demonstrating various body skills and structures for what we are saying is the IS framework. However, if we look at it martially, we may say that it does not meet the criteria for martial application cause it does not account for A,B, and C.

I believe that once we have these frameworks, we can then begin blending them together somehow and seeing how the various outputs affect things as we inject new variables into our models. (or something like that!

For me, OODA is very important. I submit, probably the most important element maritally.

The lightbulb went off for me finally after deliberating on a stuck problem in my head for the last couple of years when watching the recent Knock-em out viral video.

It is shocking because it is so random. It represents an extreme and there is not much we can do about it and that scares us.

If you apply the concept of OODA, it explains it. for example, we can take no ACTION on it because we never get to Observe and Orient on it before we are the victim and it is over. It is at the extreme end of the OO spectrum of input/feedback. On the other end, we have a duel. Think of a old west gunfight. Very controlled, very specialized and it comes down to who is simply the fastest draw and who has the best skill at drawing that gun and shooting it.

In between we have everything else. Self defense might be closer to the Knock-em-out end, while IS training might be closer to the duel end of the spectrum.

We need to find the sweet spot in our training methods that one, are not based on simply getting knocked out, nor the other end where things are tightly controlled.

Our training paradigms need to account for the fact that our partner gets a vote in the situation and we cannot control what he or she might or might not do....(degree of cooperation).

We need to balance and develop training methods and spend some time with them that allow for this level of "aliveness".

I don't believe the IS training methods encourage this, because you cannot train IS in this environment. Unfortunately, we don't get good examples of IS guys applying this stuff uncooperatively either for some reason.

I'd hoped to get with Dan Harden this year in Germany, but he didn't make it over...I'd had high hopes that Dan was gonna bridge that gap for me personally as I have heard VERY good things about Dan in this area.

Anyway, sorry to be so extreme on this stuff. Hope this helps explain what my thoughts are.

Kevin Leavitt 12-05-2013 04:35 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332892)
Kevin,
I understood Szczepan's point, and I agree with him and you that these are not "good martial applications." I was looking for clips that would show, at least somewhat, the cues that IS is being used to enhance the body's ability to manage force. The first clip is just that - a guy tries to apply force to Sam Chin, and is pulsed or bounced off. I have felt Sifu Chin. He has IS and aiki. When he first came to the U.S. back in the '90s, he took on all comers, and had posters all over NYC's Chinatown inviting anyone and everyone. A lot of tough people took him up on it. He has paid his dues. ;)

The second video shows some of his students (his senior student Alex Skalozub) and "grand-students" doing same in practice drills and demos, some of which have a higher level of stress applied. Yes, again the conditions are controlled, but my point there is that these students are able to maintain their "peng" even when in full mobility and response to another person.

The third clip was just for fun - to show that even someone who is not combat-trained can do "something" that can take a large person's punch off-line. If a young girl can do this -- albeit against rhythmic, non-killer punches, yet still incoming punches -- imagine how a fighter could implement these basic internal skills to gain an advantage against the committed puncher in Szczepan's clip. The defender in his clip... had nuthin'.

lol...no worries then! we just cross post! I am a little manic about this stuff right now!

Cady Goldfield 12-05-2013 04:48 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 332894)
lol...no worries then! we just cross post! I am a little manic about this stuff right now!

Addictive, idn'it? ;)

Budd 12-06-2013 08:24 AM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Well and I think we're talking about a couple different things . . . (AGAIN)

1. IS skills - the vids are interesting and to my eye are useful to demonstrate how jin enhances basic jujutsu applications in a controlled setting.

2. Combative application - Honestly I'd treat IS like any other attribute in the strength matrix (assuming the raw physical traits of strength, endurance, speed, durability, etc. -- ooh RPG, RPG D&D - are agreed to be desirable attributes in hand-to-hand engagements). There are other complimentary advantages besides strength (balance, sensitivity), but the bottom line tends to be along the amount of power you can bring to bear. Which as has already been pointed out in the Ain't Necessarily So thread, raw strength will not guarantee success in combative engagements.

One more trailing thought - in IS to AIKI terms, one of the advantages that is also thought to be conferred is the ability "borrow" someone else's strength (aiki - but not due to just timing and superior position, though those things invariably help in the application). Where I agree with some is that the mechanism for training it to a basic degree of application skill still seems to be in paired partner waza. I actually think it's necessary to at some point take it into more "realistic" combative settings against partners that are going to change it up, surprise you, force you into more of an adaptive/reactive model rather than assuming you will always have the proactive approach.

Kevin Leavitt 12-06-2013 11:15 AM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Good summary Budd!

Cady Goldfield 12-06-2013 10:56 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote: (Post 332919)
One more trailing thought - in IS to AIKI terms, one of the advantages that is also thought to be conferred is the ability "borrow" someone else's strength (aiki - but not due to just timing and superior position, though those things invariably help in the application). Where I agree with some is that the mechanism for training it to a basic degree of application skill still seems to be in paired partner waza. I actually think it's necessary to at some point take it into more "realistic" combative settings against partners that are going to change it up, surprise you, force you into more of an adaptive/reactive model rather than assuming you will always have the proactive approach.

It's not "thought to be conferred," it most definitely is conferred, that an adept aiki practitioner can exploit someone else's force -- I prefer "exploits" and "force" to "borrow" and "strength." One is actively absorbing force and then re-directing it back into the opponent, combined with one's own generated force. This is focused as an attack on the opponent's attack.

An individual can generate a certain amount of force from utilizing his own body mass, gravity and internal movement; however, his return attack on the opponent will be much more powerful with the addition of the opponent's own force.

In Chinese internal martial arts, "fajing" is the term for explosive expression of force or power. There is "soft" fajing and "hard" fajing. The former, is the force of only the individual. The latter is the individual's force, augmented by the exploitation of the opponent's force.

So, where the solo vs. partner waza come in, is you train within yourself to generate power (IP) and aiki, and when you train with a partner, you learn to absorb and project not only your own force, but his as well, combined. The process is one and the same, but you need the partner to provide the extra force and the means by which to develop the on-touch ability to instantaneously receive and feed force from another.

Rupert Atkinson 12-08-2013 12:51 PM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 332873)
Hi Cady,
What is commonly understood by martial application is something similar to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=rpBvW376E5E

I still would not call it big stress, just normal martial interaction.

now if you look closely on attacker behavior on this video and on two videos you provided you may find the answer for your questions :)

As usual, can't argue with that, Szczepan! But - how to train? That is the question. I like the style of training shown in the original post vid as it matches what I do and I think it has helped me a lot. I have to say though, my Judo and Jujutsu have also helped. The soft aiki training adds to the hard Judo/Jujutsu/whatever training. otherwise, might as well just give up, hit the gym, and bulk up.

Alec Corper 12-09-2013 02:49 AM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
There are so many factors at play in this I hardly know where to start so forgive me if this is a touch incoherent. It seems there are several different issues all mixed together.
Being able to generate power does not mean you can deliver it.
Being technically skilled does not mean you are mentally ready.
being able to hit (or throw, whatever0 does not mean you know how to fight on after being severely traumatised.
Martial arts range from hobby through sport through art through self defence, and potentially combat.
The needs for the sportsman, hobbyist, artist, bouncer, policeman, soldier are all different and can't be trained with one approach.
Where are the elements of strategy, simulation, deception, weaponisation, etc., that should be part of the overall martial context.
IS/IP/Aiki will not prepare you for "fighting" any more than external arts will, unless "pre-emptive" awareness extends into all realms of potential conflict,and all realms of meeting that conflict, including use of terrain, position, voice , deception, weapons etc.
I'm too old to go back to fighting full contact but I am convinced of one thing, both through personal experience, and that of many people i knew and grew up with. If you really want to be able to "fight" with skill you need to be prepared to go out and look for opportunities to test your "spirit", for want of a better word. If you survive the first half dozen encounters you will open up the channels of survival instinct that need to marry with deep training to produce a combat ready martial "artist".
Also, with all respect to Szczepan, I don't think the video shows martial application, it shows a fighter who knows his goal, (put the guy away) and a martial artist who is defending himself in a sport fashion. The appropriate strategy would be to run away, or cry until you get close enough to go for vulnerable areas, or spit in his face to distract him. Instead of which he waves his hands in the air like a dog with his hair standing on end hoping to intimidate other dogs into believing he is bigger than he is.
The karate guy was lucky it was a sport duel or he probably would have been kicked to death whilst he lay there thinking,'WTF just happened?". Will IP?IS?Aiki help with that? Possibly, through good spherical power displacement you may get knocked backwards rather than down, you may even feel the energy coming and respond before or as it arrives, but I don't believe you can fuse internal training into external arts without fighting.
The few people I have felt with real power in IP have all fought outside of the dojo setting many times. in some case before their training and in other cases after. However the fusion and embodiment of theses skills comes from a deep visceral level and not only from training.
as i said my apologies for rambling, just a few thoughts, FWIW

Budd 12-09-2013 07:41 AM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332949)
It's not "thought to be conferred," it most definitely is conferred, that an adept aiki practitioner can exploit someone else's force -- I prefer "exploits" and "force" to "borrow" and "strength." One is actively absorbing force and then re-directing it back into the opponent, combined with one's own generated force. This is focused as an attack on the opponent's attack.

Hah, thanks for walking into that one :) The problem is that a number of folks think they are doing pure jin type of work and when you put hands on them feel a muscley external frame based approach that - even when jin is present, isn't pure enough to enable much in the way of fajin nor aiki (more on that below). I don't really want to quibble over borrowing versus exploiting as they are simply imagery tricks to get the body to do something different than it normally would do. A simple test of aiki is if someone pushes on you, you realign yourself without much in the way of overt movement such that they push themselves away. So therefore grounding a push isn't aiki per se in this model. And you can see how pure someone's jin is if they activate local muscles in the shoulder/chest, etc to handle the load. Better conditioning and skill lead to the ability to handle greater loads (still within some definable human limits, etc.).

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332949)
An individual can generate a certain amount of force from utilizing his own body mass, gravity and internal movement; however, his return attack on the opponent will be much more powerful with the addition of the opponent's own force.

Again, conflating training the goods in terms of Internal Strength (which is pretty much all about what's going on inside you) versus an application of AIKI (making someone else's strength your own). There's a couple very important components of internally generated power that have so far been ignored - that are critical to fajin and have nothing to do with whether there's another person or not.

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332949)
In Chinese internal martial arts, "fajing" is the term for explosive expression of force or power. There is "soft" fajing and "hard" fajing. The former, is the force of only the individual. The latter is the individual's force, augmented by the exploitation of the opponent's force.

So, where the solo vs. partner waza come in, is you train within yourself to generate power (IP) and aiki, and when you train with a partner, you learn to absorb and project not only your own force, but his as well, combined. The process is one and the same, but you need the partner to provide the extra force and the means by which to develop the on-touch ability to instantaneously receive and feed force from another.

Cady, this is where I think we're going to diverge and disagree more thoroughly. I've never heard of any mainstream 6H art reference hard and soft fajin the way you describe. It sounds more like someone's individual interpretation that got gummed up somewhere along the way. I don't quibble so much with the need for application training as you summarize in your last paragraph, but again I'm not sure where you get your hard/soft fajin bracketing. Like I mention above, we haven't progressed past talking about basic jin and there's a whole bunch more criteria that goes on with good fajin that haven't been mentioned and are part of the individual skill/conditioning path.

NagaBaba 12-09-2013 09:47 AM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 332974)
As usual, can't argue with that, Szczepan! But - how to train? That is the question. I like the style of training shown in the original post vid as it matches what I do and I think it has helped me a lot. I have to say though, my Judo and Jujutsu have also helped. The soft aiki training adds to the hard Judo/Jujutsu/whatever training. otherwise, might as well just give up, hit the gym, and bulk up.

Hi Rupert,
I have no advices for 'internal training', I simply pointed that we should carefully use words to describe some behavior. I'd say using 'martial application' to describe the videos Cady presented is very misleading. IMO if there is no element of danger for defender, we should not call it martial. You may call is healthy gymnastic or something similar but not martial application.

NagaBaba 12-09-2013 09:57 AM

Re: Aikijujutsu
 
Quote:

Alec Corper wrote: (Post 332983)
Also, with all respect to Szczepan, I don't think the video shows martial application, it shows a fighter who knows his goal, (put the guy away) and a martial artist who is defending himself in a sport fashion.

I agree I should have chose different term. With this video I only wanted to illustrate the big difference in the way how attack is provided. In the videos Cady provided we can see ridiculously sloppy attacks where attacker behave as a well cooked noodle. Quite a nonsense from martial point of view.
The term 'martial application' should not be used for this kind of 'training'.


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