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-   -   Kuzushi on contact (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23123)

Lee Salzman 11-14-2013 01:17 PM

Kuzushi on contact
 
I found an interesting comment from Aikido Journal on how the usage of internals, and further, aiki, can provide for kuzushi on contact: http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/1...#comment-39263

What do ya'll think of the ideas elaborated there - that it's simply more about you in the end and working to make you, literally, an expression of yin and yang - as opposed to, say, the four-legged animal model where you worry about connecting one center to another?

chillzATL 11-14-2013 02:26 PM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote: (Post 332230)
I found an interesting comment from Aikido Journal on how the usage of internals, and further, aiki, can provide for kuzushi on contact: http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/1...#comment-39263

What do ya'll think of the ideas elaborated there - that it's simply more about you in the end and working to make you, literally, an expression of yin and yang - as opposed to, say, the four-legged animal model where you worry about connecting one center to another?

I think it should always be about you, at first. Otherwise it's like trying to build a structure by starting at the top. You start with the foundation and that's you, then you build up from there. Four legged animal is just a basic teaching device, not some high concept, but it says a lot that we're at a point that it can be seen that way. Without that foundation even that is just an idea backed by empty movement and muscle. Look at what all the internal guys are doing. Regardless of who you see, it's all about building that foundation first. It all starts in you. All the movement and putting hand here, foot there is just a waste of time until you have that foundation. Well, unless the feel good of successfully being able to put your hand here and foot there is what they're after. Then it's not a waste of time, but it's not what Ueshiba was doing either.

Budd 11-14-2013 03:08 PM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
I think when you're doing the right stuff you are concerned about maintaining the purity of ground/gravity forces working through you (ki of earth balanced in man in the heaven/earth/man schema - interestingly is no one here as far as I have seen has displayed any info on the ki of heaven). The four-legged animal image (cuz keep in mind, it's an imagery device to get you to do something you aren't going to inherently choose to do based on your every day movement - not a "here's how to do a technique or application") assumes and invokes that base foundation of balancing the ki in you and starts down the path of using your dantian to then convey the balanced forces in you to or through another point in space (conversely it also presumes when someone gives you force it's either absorbed into a void you manage - another kind of four-legged animal, or deflected into the other person's balance hole, again invoking, you guessed it, ding ding ding). I've been amused at reading the notion that you're training to give up your center while doing it, but people are going to think what they think based on what they've seen and been exposed to.

Cady Goldfield 11-14-2013 06:56 PM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
I'd say it's all inside you... although any force that your opponent provides can and will be used against him. ;)

Kuzushi on contact requires a combination of "shape" (i.e. you are forming your frame and structure in such a way that it is arc-like so that force can be directed by you and is not dumped into any of the joints, which would cause structural failure or require you to step, bend or otherwise move away from the force to maintain or restore your balance), the manipulation of your "yin" muscles to absorb and neutralize incoming force and of your "yang" muscles to propel force back into your opponent. The simultaneous absorption and propelling of force temporarily "freezes" the opponent. If you do this process rapidly/explosively, it creates that "shocky" effect. Even more so if you add the diaphragm-dropping fun fa-jing.

Rupert Atkinson 11-15-2013 12:27 AM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
I always find myself agreeing with Dan's points. I really like what he wrote there - it makes a lot of sense to me.

Everyone has heard of sayings like, "When moving, move like the wind; when still, be as still as a mountain." Well, I modified it for myself to: "Be a mountain moving like the wind." What I mean is, though you move swiftly, try at all times to be as solid as a rock. Heavy yet light. Immovable if I want to be, and immovable while moving, if I want to be. Not easy, but I think that is what Dan meantove, and that it is an achievable goal.

The main point in the Francis Takahashi article above Dan's comment is that kuzushi in Aikido is mostly fake. I think most here can relate to pliable ukes falling over at will - we are all guilty of it. But that is part of the Aikido paradigm and is actually one of our strengths, except that, we overdo it. We must also, I believe, 'resist' and 'force' tori to find solutions to the problems uke provides. Until you/we acknowledge that, start trying it, and begin to start facing up to your/our mistaken approach, then you/we will not progress. If you cannot test what you know you will never develop it. It's just that simple.

Demetrio Cereijo 11-15-2013 03:45 AM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 332246)
The main point in the Francis Takahashi article above Dan's comment is that kuzushi in Aikido is mostly fake.

Exactly.

Quote:

We must also, I believe, 'resist' and 'force' tori to find solutions to the problems uke provides. Until you/we acknowledge that, start trying it, and begin to start facing up to your/our mistaken approach, then you/we will not progress. If you cannot test what you know you will never develop it. It's just that simple.
If people wanted this the training methodology would have changed long time ago, don't you think?

chillzATL 11-15-2013 07:59 AM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 332251)
If people wanted this the training methodology would have changed long time ago, don't you think?

Maybe, but often times people only want what they're given. When they're given X for so long, eventually X becomes all there is.

Budd 11-15-2013 09:13 AM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332241)
I'd say it's all inside you... although any force that your opponent provides can and will be used against him. ;)

Well duh, it is called Aiki (in this context harmony/joining/fitting in with applied force/power/energy) and yeah you should use whatever force is given against the other person if you're good enough ;)

That being said and more generally speaking to the topic of the thread, I think again a few things are being conflated - there's the body conditioning and skill building (including sensitivity to forces inside you as well as how forces outside you will be managed by ... the forces inside you) to develop the baseline internal strength, then there's the skill building of applying said things against a dumb force, then there's the skill building of applying said things against more intelligent forces. I generally subscribe to the theory that it takes a lot more conditioning and work than most people are generally willing to do so what comes is a lot of people thinking jin manipulation is the end-game working with bodies that are doing some local muscley version of it.

Kuzushi on contact is a combination of skill/conditioning/application. You have to do the work in the first two to enable the third, but you can "cheat" in your combination of all three to compensate for lacking in any single area. The question is how important is it to excel in all three or do you just care if the other person falls down by any means necessary?

Alfonso 11-15-2013 09:32 AM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
If you want kuzushi on contact you must be ready before the contact happens. Kuzushi on contact is a result, the process itself of achieving that is a different matter. That result can be achieved by a number of means , including getting yourself a compliant uke , or an uninformed one .. . Controlling the resolution of force aggregates, that's hard to do, hard to learn, hard to get good at. Doing it using ki, aiki, jin, qi that's even hard to explain, let alone do. And doing it against a determined opponent that can play the same game is a whole other story.

Cady Goldfield 11-15-2013 10:09 AM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote: (Post 332264)
Well duh, it is called Aiki (in this context harmony/joining/fitting in with applied force/power/energy) and yeah you should use whatever force is given against the other person if you're good enough ;)

Have you been able to do that, Budd? You have been training "teh internalz" for a while now.

Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote:
I generally subscribe to the theory that it takes a lot more conditioning and work than most people are generally willing to do so what comes is a lot of people thinking jin manipulation is the end-game working with bodies that are doing some local muscley version of it.

This is true. And it also takes sensitivity and awareness to be able to tell when someone is doing a local-muscle version, especially when there is actually some internal structure being used. I once felt a person considered high-level, but in comparison to others I'd felt who were also high-level, this guy had a certain stiffness or hardness to him that, in retrospect, I realized was muscle. He was kind of a "hybrid." This probably will end up as the status quo for a generation of new practitioners who gain some of the concepts, but not the deeper package.

Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote:
Kuzushi on contact is a combination of skill/conditioning/application.

Well, duh. ;)

Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote:
You have to do the work in the first two to enable the third, but you can "cheat" in your combination of all three to compensate for lacking in any single area. The question is how important is it to excel in all three or do you just care if the other person falls down by any means necessary?

Any amount of IP and aiki one acquires will enhance his fighting kit against anyone who has no internal training. But the honing of the internal skills across the span of a lifetime is the art, and not everyone has the discipline or desire to take it that far. IMO, it's all good, and the skill set and method are there to be experienced to whatever degree and depth one wishes. Only a relative handful will take it to the height of perceived mastery, but that's true of any discipline.

Budd 11-15-2013 12:07 PM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332267)
Have you been able to do that, Budd? You have been training "teh internalz" for a while now.

I do okay for a part-time amateur. But I'm more interested in talking about the skills and how they work than what I'm doing or think I can do (it won't mean anything except when people put hands on me).

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332267)
This is true. And it also takes sensitivity and awareness to be able to tell when someone is doing a local-muscle version, especially when there is actually some internal structure being used. I once felt a person considered high-level, but in comparison to others I'd felt who were also high-level, this guy had a certain stiffness or hardness to him that, in retrospect, I realized was muscle. He was kind of a "hybrid." This probably will end up as the status quo for a generation of new practitioners who gain some of the concepts, but not the deeper package.

I think that's the case of most of the people that are talking about and training internal strength. Some degree of hybrid approach.

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332267)
Any amount of IP and aiki one acquires will enhance his fighting kit against anyone who has no internal training. But the honing of the internal skills across the span of a lifetime is the art, and not everyone has the discipline or desire to take it that far. IMO, it's all good, and the skill set and method are there to be experienced to whatever degree and depth one wishes. Only a relative handful will take it to the height of perceived mastery, but that's true of any discipline.

And like anything else, it will depend on the quality of information they have access to and the amount of work they're willing to personally undertake to own their progress. (duh) But that still doesn't answer why people seem to think there's some either/or when it comes to how you train to express you as you in the internal strength model (heaven/earth/man) and how you train to apply it when you take in additional considerations (such as a dumb or intelligent force acting upon you - to enable kuzushi on contact).

Bernd Lehnen 11-16-2013 01:35 PM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote:
You have to do the work in the first two to enable the third, but you can "cheat" in your combination of all three to compensate for lacking in any single area. The question is how important is it to excel in all three or do you just care if the other person falls down by any means necessary?….

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: 
This is true. And it also takes sensitivity and awareness to be able to tell when someone is doing a local-muscle version, especially when there is actually some internal structure being used. I once felt a person considered high-level, but in comparison to others I'd felt who were also high-level, this guy had a certain stiffness or hardness to him that, in retrospect, I realized was muscle. He was kind of a "hybrid." This probably will end up as the status quo for a generation of new practitioners who gain some of the concepts, but not the deeper package.

I think that's the case of most of the people that are talking about and training internal strength. Some degree of hybrid approach.

Well,
it's strange ( or perhaps this the usual prominent human reaction which isn't easy to overcome).

I've felt several people ( "hybrids" ), amongst them at least two well known high-ranking Japanese, who all had a lot of internals to offer, but each and every time when challenged, their fighting spirit taking over and all internals forgotten, sheer muscling through was what was left and they were good at it.

Best

Bernd

Cady Goldfield 11-16-2013 03:19 PM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Bernd Lehnen wrote: (Post 332312)
Well,
it's strange ( or perhaps this the usual prominent human reaction which isn't easy to overcome).

I've felt several people ( "hybrids" ), amongst them at least two well known high-ranking Japanese, who all had a lot of internals to offer, but each and every time when challenged, their fighting spirit taking over and all internals forgotten, sheer muscling through was what was left and they were good at it.

Best

Bernd

This is why the body work has to come at the beginning of a person's training, to create a foundation that will become the person's "true nature." Whatever he has wired in, is what he will fight with under duress. It is very difficult to un-do old training and replace it with another completely different method. And, it takes a very special ability to deconstruct an old foundation and build a new one; you have to very open and willing to break yourself down to build yourself back up differently.
I suspect that those people you mention, began their training with a more conventional "external" method, and came to internal training later in their careers, adding it to their arsenal rather than reconstructing themselves with it.

Budd 11-16-2013 06:36 PM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Bernd Lehnen wrote: (Post 332312)
Well,
it's strange ( or perhaps this the usual prominent human reaction which isn't easy to overcome).

I've felt several people ( "hybrids" ), amongst them at least two well known high-ranking Japanese, who all had a lot of internals to offer, but each and every time when challenged, their fighting spirit taking over and all internals forgotten, sheer muscling through was what was left and they were good at it.

Best

Bernd

Which basically illustrates a gap and why changing over how your body fundamentally moves is both critical - there's ki tricks against compliant partners, having some hybrid skills that work against resistance and then fundamentally changing how your body moves, manages force loads and generates power.

Budd 11-16-2013 06:39 PM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 332313)
This is why the body work has to come at the beginning of a person's training, to create a foundation that will become the person's "true nature." Whatever he has wired in, is what he will fight with under duress. It is very difficult to un-do old training and replace it with another completely different method. And, it takes a very special ability to deconstruct an old foundation and build a new one; you have to very open and willing to break yourself down to build yourself back up differently.
I suspect that those people you mention, began their training with a more conventional "external" method, and came to internal training later in their careers, adding it to their arsenal rather than reconstructing themselves with it.

To reinforce this point and to borrow a phrase from Chinese martial arts, using taij as an example - "Taiji is easy to learn but difficult to correct"

Rupert Atkinson 11-28-2013 04:13 PM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote: (Post 332318)
"Taiji is easy to learn but difficult to correct"

Translation: Taiji is difficult to learn.

Budd 12-02-2013 11:20 AM

Re: Kuzushi on contact
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 332672)
Translation: Taiji is difficult to learn.

Careful. Simple translations are why so much of the "good stuff" gets lost in the translating ;)


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