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akiy 10-30-2013 11:13 AM

YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 


Here is Christian Tissier (7th dan, Aikikai) demonstrating at the 2013 Sportaccord World Combat Games in Saint Petersburg, Russia.

What are your thoughts on his demonstration?

-- Jun

TokyoZeplin 10-30-2013 11:44 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Looks fantastic, but not really the sort of demonstration that I personally like.
Purely for what I'm looking for, I wish the Uke's had been a bit better, and the entire thing had been a little less stop-motion'ish. For instance, at 3 minutes (exactly) into the demonstration, when Uke attacks, after the blow is blocked, they stop for about a second, before moving onwards.
But I'm not entirely sure under what circumstances the demonstration was held, and what expectations were, so whatever.

sakumeikan 10-30-2013 01:10 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Hi,
Lovely choreography.Personally I think its like watching paint dry. Does nothing for me. Sorry!! Cheers, Joe.

Janet Rosen 10-30-2013 01:47 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 331797)
Hi,
Lovely choreography.Personally I think its like watching paint dry. Does nothing for me. Sorry!! Cheers, Joe.

I kind of feel the same way. It's the kind of demo that is good in a dojo setting where you want to show idealized forms (kata - nage and uke roles) for students to emulate. But to show off the art and have an uke who is willing to stand, frozen in space, during the technical transitions rather than continually turn towards nage to at least try to continue to attack makes it look like a dance. I'm NOT talking about uke resisting or doing kaeshiwaza, just looking as alive and connected and moving as nage is.

robin_jet_alt 10-30-2013 02:09 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
It looks like he has injured his right knee. I wonder what effect that had on the demonstration, apart from making some of those pins ineffective.

James Sawers 10-30-2013 02:20 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Very nice demonstration........wish mine would go half as well......

sakumeikan 10-30-2013 06:27 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 331800)
I kind of feel the same way. It's the kind of demo that is good in a dojo setting where you want to show idealized forms (kata - nage and uke roles) for students to emulate. But to show off the art and have an uke who is willing to stand, frozen in space, during the technical transitions rather than continually turn towards nage to at least try to continue to attack makes it look like a dance. I'm NOT talking about uke resisting or doing kaeshiwaza, just looking as alive and connected and moving as nage is.

Dear Janet,
Nice to note we appear to have a similar viewpoint.I have seen many of Mr Tissier's demos and quite frankly there are much of a sameness.I even think the gent with the grey hair is a longstanding uke for Tissier Sensei.I do not see any MARTIAL applications in his work.Neither did I see any real commitment to give a genuine attack.It reminded me of an old flicker instructions you got in the old days , where you flicked the pages and the figures seemed to move.It was for the first part a series of srop /start waza.I reckon Tissier Sensei didnt even break sweat nere .Too clinical by half.Reminded me of a Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers dance.I guess I will be seen as a heretic or worse , but you call the shots as you see them.So whether people agree with me or not, I stand by viewpoint.Cheers, Joe.

Janet Rosen 10-30-2013 07:36 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 331823)
Reminded me of a Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers dance.

Nah, those two always showed proper connection and flow :)

Carsten Möllering 10-31-2013 03:59 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: (Post 331796)
I wish the Uke's had been a bit better, ...

Bruno Gonzales, godan, is a longterm student of Christian Tissier. He is one of the assistant teachers in his dōjō. So be it considered bad or good by us onlookers it is at least exactly the way his ukemi is expected to be by his teacher.
If you check out the Demonstrations of Christian Tissier at Paris Bercy you will see Gonzales giving ukemi in a different way.

Quote:

... the entire thing had been a little less stop-motion'ish.
Do you see a difference between the first part (osae waza) and the second part (nage waza), well, and also part three and four? Or do you see this stop-motion throughout the whole demonstration?

Quote:

But I'm not entirely sure under what circumstances the demonstration was held, and what expectations were, so whatever.
Tissier is showing what can be called "didactical forms" in allmost every demonstration.
Having studied his style for some yeas the structure of his demo is familiar to me. It's not random but shows how he is teaching aikidō. The stops at certain (not random) points in the technique are a tool, that is used by tori to controll position, posture, connection ... by himself. To do the transitions in katamae waza very precise is considered to be crucial in this way of aikidō.

Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 331800)
... good in a dojo setting where you want to show idealized forms (kata - nage and uke roles) for students to emulate.

This describes very nice what Tissier is trying to do. And not only in the first part. He often states that what he shows and teaches openly should allways considered to be didactical forms.
He explicetly doesn't show "free movement" or "applied technique".

Quote:

... an uke who is willing to stand, frozen in space, during the technical transitions rather than continually turn towards nage to at least try to continue to attack ...
1. As I said those hold-on-positions are not random, but clearly defined positions. When you execute the waza in one flow there will be a transition of hands, controll by tori etc. but there will (should) be no "freedom" for uke. Uke will (should) be controlled the whole way through. The stops are made to work on those transitions.
So for the purpose of working on those key positions uke is required to not do "non-kata-moves". So tori has not to react to whatever behaviour, but can work the form. Obiously this requiremt is usually needed only during the first stages of learning. (see point 3.)

2. You may notice that there is a difference between the omote waza and the ura waza. In ura waza, when uke is expected to come to tori, the halts are far less extreme - if they exis at all (watch out ikkyo and nikyo ura) then for omote waza where tori is expected to work towards uke.

3. Having said all that: I recommend to try out an advanced student of this way of practice. It is the aim of this stop-motion-tool to control uke clearly even during the halt of the technique. For to learn to be able to do the trasitions of the katama waza not only because of speed and movement, but technically. So, if this method works out fine uke will finally not be able to "turn towards nage to at least try to continue to attack" because tori is able to controll him even during those halts of technique and doing the transitions needed for the katame waza.

Quote:

... makes it look like a dance.
Well, Tissier often speaks about the "agreements" we make for being able to learn aikidō. Endō simply calls it "kata". ;-)

Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 331802)
It looks like he has injured his right knee. I wonder what effect that had on the demonstration, ...

Tissier's knee was injured some years ago. Someone was thrown full force into his 's knee from the side. He managed to get back on the tatami, but never recoverd from that incident.
Watching him, you may sometimes recognize that his steps are not allways so precise like they used to be. And sometimes he is equilibrium is not as good as it could or should be.
But this is not the reason for the way he shows aikidō that is discussed here. It's a problem apart from his teaching method or understanding of demonstration.

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 331823)
I do not see any MARTIAL applications in his work.

As I said above: Tissier often states that he does not show what he understands as "martial applications" openly. So one can like this attitude or not, but to look for martial application in demonstrations (or the theaching) of Tissier means to put wrong expections on his demos.
His more dynamic demonstrations in former times are often misunderstood to show martial effectiveness. As far as I understand him that's not true. It is just his way of ki no nagare.

You sometimes can get a glimps of what Tissier understands (and practices) concerning martial spirit and effectiveness, when you see him doing the swordwork he adapted from Inaba sensei. Above all when he corrects and teaches his near students to become more "sharp". When he underlines this using body movemen, aikidō movement. Very interesting!

Quote:

... Tissier Sensei didnt even break sweat nere ....
This made me grin: This can be a sign of uncommitted practice, but can also be a sign of very advanced practice.

Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 331827)
Nah, those two always showed proper connection and flow

Quite a number of students who follow Tissier where led to Argentine tango via aikidō ...

sakumeikan 10-31-2013 04:50 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 331832)
Bruno Gonzales, godan, is a longterm student of Christian Tissier. He is one of the assistant teachers in his dōjō. So be it considered bad or good by us onlookers it is at least exactly the way his ukemi is expected to be by his teacher.
If you check out the Demonstrations of Christian Tissier at Paris Bercy you will see Gonzales giving ukemi in a different way.

Do you see a difference between the first part (osae waza) and the second part (nage waza), well, and also part three and four? Or do you see this stop-motion throughout the whole demonstration?

Tissier is showing what can be called "didactical forms" in allmost every demonstration.
Having studied his style for some yeas the structure of his demo is familiar to me. It's not random but shows how he is teaching aikidō. The stops at certain (not random) points in the technique are a tool, that is used by tori to controll position, posture, connection ... by himself. To do the transitions in katamae waza very precise is considered to be crucial in this way of aikidō.

This describes very nice what Tissier is trying to do. And not only in the first part. He often states that what he shows and teaches openly should allways considered to be didactical forms.
He explicetly doesn't show "free movement" or "applied technique".

1. As I said those hold-on-positions are not random, but clearly defined positions. When you execute the waza in one flow there will be a transition of hands, controll by tori etc. but there will (should) be no "freedom" for uke. Uke will (should) be controlled the whole way through. The stops are made to work on those transitions.
So for the purpose of working on those key positions uke is required to not do "non-kata-moves". So tori has not to react to whatever behaviour, but can work the form. Obiously this requiremt is usually needed only during the first stages of learning. (see point 3.)

2. You may notice that there is a difference between the omote waza and the ura waza. In ura waza, when uke is expected to come to tori, the halts are far less extreme - if they exis at all (watch out ikkyo and nikyo ura) then for omote waza where tori is expected to work towards uke.

3. Having said all that: I recommend to try out an advanced student of this way of practice. It is the aim of this stop-motion-tool to control uke clearly even during the halt of the technique. For to learn to be able to do the trasitions of the katama waza not only because of speed and movement, but technically. So, if this method works out fine uke will finally not be able to "turn towards nage to at least try to continue to attack" because tori is able to controll him even during those halts of technique and doing the transitions needed for the katame waza.

Well, Tissier often speaks about the "agreements" we make for being able to learn aikidō. Endō simply calls it "kata". ;-)

Tissier's knee was injured some years ago. Someone was thrown full force into his 's knee from the side. He managed to get back on the tatami, but never recoverd from that incident.
Watching him, you may sometimes recognize that his steps are not allways so precise like they used to be. And sometimes he is equilibrium is not as good as it could or should be.
But this is not the reason for the way he shows aikidō that is discussed here. It's a problem apart from his teaching method or understanding of demonstration.

As I said above: Tissier often states that he does not show what he understands as "martial applications" openly. So one can like this attitude or not, but to look for martial application in demonstrations (or the theaching) of Tissier means to put wrong expections on his demos.
His more dynamic demonstrations in former times are often misunderstood to show martial effectiveness. As far as I understand him that's not true. It is just his way of ki no nagare.

You sometimes can get a glimps of what Tissier understands (and practices) concerning martial spirit and effectiveness, when you see him doing the swordwork he adapted from Inaba sensei. Above all when he corrects and teaches his near students to become more "sharp". When he underlines this using body movemen, aikidō movement. Very interesting!

This made me grin: This can be a sign of uncommitted practice, but can also be a sign of very advanced practice.

Quite a number of students who follow Tissier where led to Argentine tango via aikidō ...

Dear Carsten,
You mention swordwork, pray may I ask, wherein the vid is there any swordwork?You make a good case for Mr Tissier's demo , are you by chance in the legal profession?Maybe next demo Tissier Sensei will get his Aikido Argentine Tango exponents do assist him?Myself, I like this dance.Maybe if I was at the demo[should there be one ] I would probably like the tango section much better than his demo.Glad my whimsical comment about Tissier Sensei not breaking sweat /or his coiffure remaining perfectly in place,made you smile.I must however state that Tissier Sensei should qualify for the best dressed man in aikido 2013.He does cut a dashing figure.Wish I knew his tailor.My own style of dress is quite dowdy/shabby in comparison.Must ask if he puts his old gear in a charity box[might pick up a bargain]??Cheers, Joe

SteliosPapadakis 10-31-2013 07:39 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Star! :)

Janet Rosen 10-31-2013 12:29 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 331832)
Bruno Gonzales, godan, is a longterm student of Christian Tissier. He is one of the assistant teachers in his dōjō. So be it considered bad or good by us onlookers it is at least exactly the way his ukemi is expected to be by his teacher.
If you check out the Demonstrations of Christian Tissier at Paris Bercy you will see Gonzales giving ukemi in a different way...

Thank you for clarification of his explicit approach and goals. Helpful info.

robin_jet_alt 10-31-2013 08:04 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 331832)
Tissier's knee was injured some years ago. Someone was thrown full force into his 's knee from the side. He managed to get back on the tatami, but never recoverd from that incident.
Watching him, you may sometimes recognize that his steps are not allways so precise like they used to be. And sometimes he is equilibrium is not as good as it could or should be.
But this is not the reason for the way he shows aikidō that is discussed here. It's a problem apart from his teaching method or understanding of demonstration.

It's sad that his knee still inhibits him so much.

I wasn't making the same criticism as the others. The main thing that stood out to me was his obvious discomfort and inability to bend that knee. Apart from that, I am a fan of Tissier.

Adam Huss 10-31-2013 09:25 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
I've never been a huge fan of Tissier Sensei's aikido, but I did like this demonstration. It showed a maturity of technique in its movement and presentation. I enjoyed that he was trying to demonstrate proper form, good fundamental technique, and control.

chillzATL 11-01-2013 08:25 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Does anyone have a link to an aikido demonstration that is markedly different from this one or most every other aikido demo I've ever seen?

Andy Kazama 11-01-2013 09:41 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J5EMD6N-cA

DanielR 11-01-2013 12:45 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Thank you, Carsten, for taking the time to address the criticism in this thread.

Having been exposed to a fair number of practitioners in this and related lineages, my take on the demo is that Tissier Sensei chose to demonstrate a few very specific points of his very specific style. Within these parameters, it is a beautiful, precise demo, as his and his senior students' demos usually are.

chillzATL 11-01-2013 03:02 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Andy Kazama wrote: (Post 331866)

eh, not so different really...

sakumeikan 11-01-2013 05:52 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Andy Kazama wrote: (Post 331866)

Hi, Andy,
So happy you picked HenryEllis Sensei's favourite video clip.He will be over the moon watching this. Cheers, Joe.

Keith Larman 11-01-2013 06:18 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Ya know, some love to complain incessantly about why folk don't post video. I really don't wonder about it anymore.

Lord help me I hope I'm never so popular folk start video taping me. Put one in the back of the melon now, it would be so much less painful.

RonRagusa 11-01-2013 09:32 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 331875)
Lord help me I hope I'm never so popular folk start video taping me. Put one in the back of the melon now, it would be so much less painful.

And yet you publish photos of the absolutely beautiful work you do on edged weapons. Those photos speak of precision of execution and painstaking attention to detail. I would be surprised if your Aikido did not reflect those same qualities. And how could something like that be unpleasant to see?

Ron

Basia Halliop 11-02-2013 03:19 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Personally I quite enjoyed watching it. I've never taken a class from him but the demo makes me see how he might be good at teaching - it feels very controlled and smooth (even with the pauses) and deliberate, and it seemed to me like he was emphasizing the basic principles in each technique. And I like that his demo focused a lot on simple techniques and kata.

Basia Halliop 11-02-2013 03:52 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote: (Post 331878)
And yet you publish photos of the absolutely beautiful work you do on edged weapons. Those photos speak of precision of execution and painstaking attention to detail. I would be surprised if your Aikido did not reflect those same qualities. And how could something like that be unpleasant to see?

Ron

Well, one person's precise and detailed is another's robotic and dead. We all value different things and strive for different things, and put various things we value in a different order of priority. So he's right, it's basically inevitable that any video demo that one person sees as an ideal will be seen by at least one other person as a perfect example of what not to do (I have never yet seen a counterexample to this) or even as 'what's wrong with a lot of aikido today'. I have no idea if there's any solution to that, as just praising everything you see or never talking about things you don't like would probably be even worse.

But it does mean that it's a rare person who will post videos. The other reason is that in most cases it makes more sense to seek comments from people whose aikido you specifically admire or wish to emulate, rather than from people you've never even trained with and who for all you know are trying to do something different than you are anyway.

David Yap 11-05-2013 10:34 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 331871)
eh, not so different really...

No, this is very far off. Very BIG movements and incomplete spirals and...uke already initiating the fall or roll even before the nage has taken his balance. One of my 3rd Dan kohai (from another dojo) does that all the time and irritates the hell out of me. When I questioned him on his ukemi, he said, "what's the difference? The result is ending up on the mats anyway".

Gerardo Torres 11-05-2013 03:36 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games
 
Hey I'm no particular fan of Tissier, but I find it hilarious how overly critical (and cultish) are some aikidoka towards other styles (as Keith said, no wonder some don't post videos). Anything that does not fall within one of their favorite shihan or styles, they immediately reduce it to twirling ribbons and dancing. All organizational aikido is more or less working with the same information, attributes and flaws, including trained compliant uke. Some commentators need to buy mirrors...


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