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-   -   Are you interrupting attacks? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23012)

Bill Danosky 09-27-2013 09:52 PM

Are you interrupting attacks?
 
We were working with Yokomen Uchi recently and the value of interrupting the attack was really revealing itself. It seems like intercepting very strongly is shocking to the attacker and contributes to a momentary loss of focus; beginning of kuzushi. Shihonage Ni (that's our tenkan variety) flows really nicely off that. I almost hate to say it- if you bang them pretty hard. We know it's coming, so nobody's getting punched.

I'm wondering if this is being taught elsewhere, or maybe other Aikidoka have noticed something similar in free practice?

This is the entry: http://orkoid.chez.com/yokomen_uchi_shiho_nage_ura.gif Probably similar to your's.

Rupert Atkinson 09-27-2013 10:49 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
It's called irimi. You enter the attack, sometimes a bit harder / faster / more furiously. Enlightening :-)

Bill Danosky 09-27-2013 10:59 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Maybe. I have done two or three Irimis before. This seemed different. Or, my Irimis are getting better.

robin_jet_alt 09-27-2013 11:44 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Yes, we do that movement, although it is possible to do it without "banging" them.

Carsten Möllering 09-28-2013 01:24 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
This is kihon waza in the aikidō I practice.

Bill Danosky 09-28-2013 10:52 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Let me be a little more specific in my question- In our training, we don't preach many- if any- mental constructs, so we're left to form our own. I'm told Kancho famously (or infamously) would hold up his room or car key and say, "This is ki." In my OP, I'm refering to "the entry" so I'm familiar with motion of Irimi in the way we're taught: Do this, now this, now this. Very Yoshinkan.

This would possibly be more of an intention within the entry. Aikido at large is very nuanced and this is one of the more subtle ones. But there's something palpably "extra" here and I'm interested in anybody's take on what that might be. Personally, I don't know if the concepts are helpful in and of themselves, or if they just help us make the right moves. But I bet there are a few opinions.

Mary Eastland 09-28-2013 12:00 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
If my uke interrupts their attack I continue my throw.

grondahl 09-28-2013 04:16 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Yes. Not my style but check out Nishio sensei. All waza there comes from an initial atemi that does not allow uke to actually attack. Very much like ki musubi no tachi, the attack draws in the atemi that cancels the attack.

Bill Danosky 09-29-2013 05:15 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Nishio Sensei is smooth and super polished, isn't he? Although I'll confess to having been a little scornful of bokken and jo practice, he makes it more relevant. Especially as a Yoshinkan Aikidoka, I understand about the derivation of our art from kenjutsu, etc. We have our hanmis, kamae and all still intact. I saw some video of Saito Sensei coming at the camera with a jo once. He's been gone a few years now, and you still want to step back from the screen.

Something like half of our techniques begin with Shite initiating atemi. Most of that is to draw the response you mentioned. One of my practice partners holds his finger up to someone's nose and calls it "The Great Aikido Attack". It's instant katate!

Billy Brown 09-29-2013 09:48 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Hi Bill, we practice 2 'standard' entries for yokomen. One is a 90 degree irimi-tenkan, more flowing and the other is what you have described, irimi. We tend to use the later for ura type movements mostly but not always. Your description of how it effects uke is on the button. I strike uke at the yonkyo point and push outwards and downwards... how far out and down will depend on the technique I am practicing eg. doing a gedan irimi-nage I will push right out and down... most attackers will get a fright when you enter like this...

OwlMatt 09-30-2013 07:59 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 330283)
Yes, we do that movement, although it is possible to do it without "banging" them.

I come from a club where the instructor doesn't like this entry, so I haven't done much of it, but a little over a week ago I was at a workshop with Art Weiss from the Midwest Aikido Center, and we worked a lot on this entry. I was very surprised at how smoothly some people were able to do it.

Cliff Judge 09-30-2013 11:32 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
If you clash / bang uke's arm when doing this, it is because you are too late.

Marie Noelle Fequiere 09-30-2013 11:50 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
We use this technique in my dojo.'
If done well, this does not interrupt the attack, not at all. It moves it where it did not intend to go, and farther, and disrupts the attacker's balance.
Very effective. If done well.

Bill Danosky 09-30-2013 02:11 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 330336)
If you clash / bang uke's arm when doing this, it is because you are too late.

Nah. It's because that's how we do it (Yokomen Uchi Shihonage Ni, in this case). We bang his arm while it's still unwinding the strike and we bash his face with the high hand if he doesn't block strongly enough. It's my intention to break his intention, even if I don't need to. No Ai this time.
Just kido.

PaulF 09-30-2013 04:33 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
We do early entry against the striking arm, where I agree with Cliff, it hasn't really got moving yet so there's no clash, this tends to be the entry for tenchi, the immibilisations, tantodori, etc. When it's done really well just the entry will throw uke. We also corner step and blend with an indicated irimi to the face, for shihonage, iriminage, etc. - sounds like what Billy described.

At summer school we also did a very direct entry coming inside the attacking arm to nullify it and bringing tekatana mentsuki in at the eyes, taking them right back over their heels. I landed awkwardly on my shoulder during that one, not especially easy ukemi first time out.

robin_jet_alt 09-30-2013 05:36 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330350)
Nah. It's because that's how we do it (Yokomen Uchi Shihonage Ni, in this case). We bang his arm while it's still unwinding the strike and we bash his face with the high hand if he doesn't block strongly enough. It's my intention to break his intention, even if I don't need to. No Ai this time.
Just kido.

I spoke with Inoue Kyoichi sensei (formerly of Yoshinkan) a few years ago, and he told me about the rationale behind Yoshinkan's "hard" training as he sees it. He said that while he appreciates the flow and what have you that is sought after by the other styles, he doesn't believe that any sort of power is possible without first thoroughly drilling in form (kata) until it becomes ingrained. Once it becomes a part of your body, you can start to think about the subtleties of the art. This is why Yoshinkan training appears to be very staccato to the outsider. He went on to say that at the higher levels, there should be no strength or clashing in Yoshinkan aikido and that techniques should be performed as smoothly as any other style. The trouble is when students lose sight of the greater picture and grow fixated on the training they have done from the beginning. They grow so attached to what they have practiced for years that they refuse to let go and do not progress past a certain point.

I actually completely agree with him. I think the Yoshinkan model is a very good way to learn aikido. Students learn martiality and form at first, and when they grow comfortable with it, they can move on to the deeper aspects. I also agree with him about the dangers that are inherent in this model, which brings me to my point.

If you are just banging, you are not just missing the 'ai', you are missing the 'aiki' and arguably also the 'do'. What you are practicing is kata. Kata is a very important first step, and I don't want to put you off your practice, but be aware that there is more to it than that, and try not to present yourself as superior, just because you train 'harder' than some.

Bill Danosky 09-30-2013 09:39 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 330361)
What you are practicing is kata. Kata is a very important first step, and I don't want to put you off your practice, but be aware that there is more to it than that, and try not to present yourself as superior, just because you train 'harder' than some.

Be aware that nuance is not lost on me, whether I am on the mat or online. I'm happy you generally approve of Yoshinkan training but you can patronize the white belts. I have never used the words "superior" or "train harder" on this forum, that I can recall. But it's very difficult- if not impossible- to throw out the old, "it's great for early training." Then pull off "...try not to present yourself as superior." It seems you assume I'll feel like you when I've come along a little (or lot) further.

It shouldn't hurt for someone to come along and stir up the water, you guys. It's okay when people have different goals than you. Mine is to learn and practice throws and joint locks. I never said that was better.

robin_jet_alt 09-30-2013 10:28 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330368)

It shouldn't hurt for someone to come along and stir up the water, you guys. It's okay when people have different goals than you. Mine is to learn and practice throws and joint locks. I never said that was better.

That's alright, then. Just be careful about claiming that something is just "because that's how we do it", when I'm pretty sure there is more to it than that.

Bill Danosky 09-30-2013 11:03 PM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Oh, that was different. I was responding to this comment, which was clearly a criticism:

Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 330336)
If you clash / bang uke's arm when doing this, it is because you are too late.

I meant we do it that way because that is the technique. We intercept the Yokomen while it is still winding up.

PaulF 10-01-2013 01:58 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 330361)
I actually completely agree with him. I think the Yoshinkan model is a very good way to learn aikido. Students learn martiality and form at first, and when they grow comfortable with it, they can move on to the deeper aspects.

It also makes a lot of sense when mat space is limited in large classes, at seminars, etc.

Cliff Judge 10-01-2013 06:29 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330373)
Oh, that was different. I was responding to this comment, which was clearly a criticism:

I meant we do it that way because that is the technique. We intercept the Yokomen while it is still winding up.

There shouldn't be a clash if the attack is still winding up! Banging means you are hitting him as he is hitting you. That's karate. If you hit him between the time he DECIDES to attack, and the time his arm has begun its strike, then you are actually hitting him much harder.

Bill Danosky 10-01-2013 07:55 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
I'm pretty sure we are mainly apart on semantics, Cliff. Let me be a little more exacting: When the Yokomen is at about 2:30 from uke's perspective, that is when I am arresting the strike. Maybe that's better described by saying it's still "unwinding" from his viewpoint. It is still increasing in velocity.

We have worked with pivoting to uke's inside and leading the strike in the direction of his original vector, but personally, I don't buy it. It requires more commitment from uke than I am comfortable with.

As it relates to the topic, it sounds like you are saying the concept of breaking uke's intention has no martial value and should be somehow transcended, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

phitruong 10-01-2013 09:07 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330387)
I'm pretty sure we are mainly apart on semantics, Cliff. Let me be a little more exacting: When the Yokomen is at about 2:30 from uke's perspective, that is when I am arresting the strike. Maybe that's better described by saying it's still "unwinding" from his viewpoint. It is still increasing in velocity.
.

for me, it doesn't matter that much on when and where. i have worked with the strike from starting point all the way to almost hitting me and anywhere in between. it's a game i play actually just to see if i don't bang the arms, still disrupt uke's balance, and stay relax at the same time. my favorite spot lately has been waiting for the strike to almost hit my head, then bring my arm up to deflect and not moving my feet at all. sort of a wingchun version then follow with a shiho nage or whatever depends on uke's balance. of course, now folks would scream "That's not aikido". my answer would be "that's my aikido. go away!". :)

Cliff Judge 10-01-2013 09:17 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330387)
I'm pretty sure we are mainly apart on semantics, Cliff. Let me be a little more exacting: When the Yokomen is at about 2:30 from uke's perspective, that is when I am arresting the strike. Maybe that's better described by saying it's still "unwinding" from his viewpoint. It is still increasing in velocity.

We have worked with pivoting to uke's inside and leading the strike in the direction of his original vector, but personally, I don't buy it. It requires more commitment from uke than I am comfortable with.

As it relates to the topic, it sounds like you are saying the concept of breaking uke's intention has no martial value and should be somehow transcended, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

The problem with "breaking" uke's intention is the same problem as smashing their striking arm as it is coming in - you make a vulnerability for yourself. Uke can move right around your block and do something else. This type of entry is the first thing I was warned about when I did some knife training a couple years back.

If however, you can get in there AS uke raises his hand to strike, hit him with your off hand and use your lead hand to extended his striking hand BACK so his elbow is behind his shoulder and over the old "third leg of the stool" unbalance point, then he will have a harder time hitting you again. I don't think Shihonage is a natural technique to use from there, though, you might as well just dump him on the ground and keep him there.

I'd call this "catching" uke's intention as opposed to breaking it. You might not be able to do this in a live situation, and there may be implications to application to police work that I don't understand. But it is very useful training to try to break your partner's balance before they've really started their attack physically, because you learn to be comfortable in that moment.

phitruong 10-01-2013 11:15 AM

Re: Are you interrupting attacks?
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 330393)
If however, you can get in there AS uke raises his hand to strike, hit him with your off hand and use your lead hand to extended his striking hand BACK so his elbow is behind his shoulder and over the old "third leg of the stool" unbalance point, then he will have a harder time hitting you again.

the yokomen strike that we practiced isn't the standard wideass swing that many aikido folks do. it's more like the karate reverse knife hand strike. the trajectory is straight in like a punch to the face with a hips rotation at the end to give it a slight curve. ya, our yokomen took the center line, then slight deviation at the end to go for the side of the throat. normal aikido entry as you described above won't work. just my 2 cents.


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