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tim evans 08-28-2013 09:43 PM

Throwing with shihonage
 
Having trouble throwing with power. I,m throwing more outward than downward if that makes any sense any thoughts.thanks

ChrisHein 08-28-2013 11:00 PM

Re: Throwing with shionage
 
You are likely not getting enough arch on your turn. When you turn, exaggerate the distance you pull uke's hands from his body, this with better break his balance. If done correctly, he should be falling before you even finnish your throw.

allowedcloud 08-29-2013 06:49 AM

Re: Throwing with shionage
 
Hi Tim,

Imagine doing shihonage with a sword.

The basic form is: tsuki - raise to jodan - turn - shomen strike. So as you throw at the end imagine cutting with a sword like you're doing suburi - but gently. Actually as you do this you really shouldn't be throwing with your arm muscles at all. Something I've been working on is to try to initiate the throw with my legs and knees - legs spiral to move center (hara), center moves the arms ("one thing moves everything moves")

You can also practice breathing while doing the technique. As you inhale imagine your breath flowing from the earth into your feet, up your legs and filling your center (hara) and coming up the spine - while at the same time dropping your weight. As you exhale imagine your breath flowing out through your fingertips. If done correctly uke should experience an 'up' sensation before being thrown.

Also keep your center facing uke at all times. Uke should never be behind you (unless you're doing ushiro waza where the point is to remedy that situation as soon as possible) or to the side of you.

Best of luck!

Janet Rosen 08-29-2013 12:53 PM

Re: Throwing with shionage
 
yep

Quote:

Joshua Landin wrote: (Post 329394)
Hi Tim,

Imagine doing shihonage with a sword.

The basic form is: tsuki - raise to jodan - turn - shomen strike. So as you throw at the end imagine cutting with a sword like you're doing suburi - but gently. Actually as you do this you really shouldn't be throwing with your arm muscles at all. Something I've been working on is to try to initiate the throw with my legs and knees - legs spiral to move center (hara), center moves the arms ("one thing moves everything moves")

You can also practice breathing while doing the technique. As you inhale imagine your breath flowing from the earth into your feet, up your legs and filling your center (hara) and coming up the spine - while at the same time dropping your weight. As you exhale imagine your breath flowing out through your fingertips. If done correctly uke should experience an 'up' sensation before being thrown.

Also keep your center facing uke at all times. Uke should never be behind you (unless you're doing ushiro waza where the point is to remedy that situation as soon as possible) or to the side of you.

Best of luck!


NagaBaba 08-29-2013 03:39 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Here you have an excellent example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBS1IcrNzo

Janet Rosen 08-29-2013 05:06 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 329432)
Here you have an excellent example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBS1IcrNzo

I know that often video doesn't "show" what is happening, but watching this a few times, while the technique is being done crisply and cleanly, I don't see uke being off-balance - either laterally weighted onto one foot or uprooted onto tiptoe - before Kanai Sensei moves under her arm.
I don't consider it safe for me as nage to proceed if my opening hasn't unbalanced uke.
I may be off-base here but that's my honest interpretation of what I'm seeing.

robin_jet_alt 08-29-2013 06:14 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 329432)
Here you have an excellent example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBS1IcrNzo

An excellent example of what? I don't usually like to criticise teachers with more experience than I have, but to me, that is an excellent example of every bad habit that I try to avoid in my shiho-nage. Particularly note how his bum slips out during his turn so that he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down. I imagine this might be the problem that the OP was having.

odudog 08-29-2013 07:28 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
There are two types of throws from Shihonage. You are currently doing the throwaway version. Master that then move onto the throw directly down version. Both are valid and used for different situations. I was first taught the throwaway.

Basia Halliop 08-30-2013 09:43 AM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 329441)
There are two types of throws from Shihonage. You are currently doing the throwaway version. Master that then move onto the throw directly down version. Both are valid and used for different situations. I was first taught the throwaway.

Yeah, that was what I was wondering reading the original poster. Is he saying he's currently throwing out and wants to throw down, or that he's trying to throw more outward than downward but not succeeding? I think the former but it's not really clear to me from the wording of the question.

Personally I was taught the outward version first, and it's the one I generally always aim for if I'm not trying to pin.

Basia Halliop 08-30-2013 09:45 AM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
"he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down"

LOL. Preeeeeety sure he's extending his arms on purpose to deliberately throw out and away, rather than down...

phitruong 08-30-2013 10:07 AM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Basia Halliop wrote: (Post 329457)
"he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down"

LOL. Preeeeeety sure he's extending his arms on purpose to deliberately throw out and away, rather than down...

arms don't throw. body throws.

Basia Halliop 08-30-2013 10:14 AM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 329460)
arms don't throw. body throws.

Precisely. Arms extended before you start to throw, so that when you slide your body forward, the movement of the body is transferred effectively to uke without requiring any force from the arms.

Basia Halliop 08-30-2013 10:15 AM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Anyway, I'm sure I'm not explaining it well, just -- pretty darn sure he's doing that on purpose.

If the poster is trying to throw down, though, it's maybe less relevant.

Possibly more useful to ask his someone in his own dojo to watch what he's doing, or to take ukemi and see what they feel.

Basia Halliop 08-30-2013 10:31 AM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
I can think of more than one different downward version I've seen and felt, too... E.g. some people seem to throw more directly down, where the shomen cut is particularly noticeable, which others rotate their body more at the same time, so it seems to feel more spirally... probably other versions, too...

tim evans 08-30-2013 11:50 AM

Re: Throwing with shionage
 
Quote:

Joshua Landin wrote: (Post 329394)
Hi Tim,

Imagine doing shihonage with a sword.

The basic form is: tsuki - raise to jodan - turn - shomen strike. So as you throw at the end imagine cutting with a sword like you're doing suburi - but gently. Actually as you do this you really shouldn't be throwing with your arm muscles at all. Something I've been working on is to try to initiate the throw with my legs and knees - legs spiral to move center (hara), center moves the arms ("one thing moves everything moves")

You can also practice breathing while doing the technique. As you inhale imagine your breath flowing from the earth into your feet, up your legs and filling your center (hara) and coming up the spine - while at the same time dropping your weight. As you exhale imagine your breath flowing out through your fingertips. If done correctly uke should experience an 'up' sensation before being thrown.

Also keep your center facing uke at all times. Uke should never be behind you (unless you're doing ushiro waza where the point is to remedy that situation as soon as possible) or to the side of you.

Best of luck!

Hey josh,I worked on this with paul it,s a totally differrent feeling from pinning them on the mat. I almost feel like I,m going to pull ukes arm out of socket doing it. and still trying to figure out how to get my body to do the throw. I,ll get it.

allowedcloud 08-30-2013 01:02 PM

Re: Throwing with shionage
 
Quote:

Tim Evans wrote: (Post 329474)
Hey josh,I worked on this with paul it,s a totally differrent feeling from pinning them on the mat. I almost feel like I,m going to pull ukes arm out of socket doing it. and still trying to figure out how to get my body to do the throw. I,ll get it.

Hmm, do I owe Paul an apology? :eek:

William Gleason sensei will be giving a seminar in Toledo October 3-5th. You should come for even just a day or so if you're able. He's sure to be working on this stuff with us, and more! :)

tim evans 08-30-2013 01:37 PM

Re: Throwing with shionage
 
Quote:

Joshua Landin wrote: (Post 329485)
Hmm, do I owe Paul an apology? :eek:

William Gleason sensei will be giving a seminar in Toledo October 3-5th. You should come for even just a day or so if you're able. He's sure to be working on this stuff with us, and more! :)

Paul's a great teacher hopefully get to come to the evening classes in the next month.i,ll check and see if I,m working that weekend in oct.

robin_jet_alt 08-30-2013 05:14 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Basia Halliop wrote: (Post 329461)
Precisely. Arms extended before you start to throw, so that when you slide your body forward, the movement of the body is transferred effectively to uke without requiring any force from the arms.

The trouble with this is what happens when uke steps back? Try it sometime. Tori moves forward with arms extended, uke steps back and takes their arm back.

odudog 08-30-2013 05:34 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 329515)
The trouble with this is what happens when uke steps back? Try it sometime. Tori moves forward with arms extended, uke steps back and takes their arm back.

Nage didn't do the throw correctly. The throw is too horizontal. Also, the slide forward was not big enough.

robin_jet_alt 08-30-2013 06:40 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 329516)
Nage didn't do the throw correctly. The throw is too horizontal.

Yes. It is too horizontal. The reason for this is that tori is not in a position to cut downwards. Tori is not in that position because he has moved through too deeply and stuck his bum out so that when he turns, he is disconnected from uke and uke has regained her balance.

Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 329516)
Also, the slide forward was not big enough.

When tori is so far away from uke that he is completely disconnected and he must completely extend his arms just to maintain his grip, how big should that slide forward be? I bet I can take a bigger step back than he can take forward under those circumstances.

In the above video, Kanai sensei either has a very kind uke, or more likely, and uke who knows that sensei is happy to do the elbow breaker version (like the faster ones he does at the end) if he encounters resistance. On that note, uke falls very well from those later throws, and serves as a good example the person who wanted to know how to take high break falls.

By the way, if Chris Li would like to elaborate on his earlier response, that would be nice. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, and I admit my terminology lacked a fair bit of precision and finesse. I've really appreciated being proved wrong by you in the past, and it has always given me something to think about.

NagaBaba 08-31-2013 02:31 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 329433)
I know that often video doesn't "show" what is happening, but watching this a few times, while the technique is being done crisply and cleanly, I don't see uke being off-balance - either laterally weighted onto one foot or uprooted onto tiptoe - before Kanai Sensei moves under her arm.
I don't consider it safe for me as nage to proceed if my opening hasn't unbalanced uke.
I may be off-base here but that's my honest interpretation of what I'm seeing.

I'm not sure it is right place to discuss about Kanai sensei detailed teaching. My intention was to provide an example of powerful throwing from shihonage as requested by Tim. As one can see it quite possible to throw from shihonage with a lot of power an still uke can receive technique in safe way.

Yes we throw this way outside, in order to i.e. maitain correct nage posture - throwing inside compromises martial principles. Also, unbalncing is done by maintaining strong lock on attacker arm elbow from the moment of the contact all time down + keeping him always in mouvent.
This strong lock serves as a connection to uke center so in the moment of throwing it is enough that nage moves his center across a center of uke and throw happens without doing any waving with the arms.

NagaBaba 08-31-2013 02:42 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 329437)
An excellent example of what? I don't usually like to criticise teachers with more experience than I have, but to me, that is an excellent example of every bad habit that I try to avoid in my shiho-nage. Particularly note how his bum slips out during his turn so that he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down. I imagine this might be the problem that the OP was having.

How should I say it in polite way :) I'm so happy your are able to spot your bad habits! Keep practice!

Robert Cowham 08-31-2013 04:18 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 329432)
Here you have an excellent example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBS1IcrNzo

I am not so keen on what he demonstrates slowly - too horizontal. But when things speed up it is much more to my taste - more vertical.

YMMV :)

odudog 08-31-2013 05:05 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 329519)
Yes. It is too horizontal. The reason for this is that tori is not in a position to cut downwards. Tori is not in that position because he has moved through too deeply and stuck his bum out so that when he turns, he is disconnected from uke and uke has regained her balance.

When tori is so far away from uke that he is completely disconnected and he must completely extend his arms just to maintain his grip, how big should that slide forward be? I bet I can take a bigger step back than he can take forward under those circumstances.

There are many reasons for doing it in this manner. Other things are in play. From the origin of the technique, there is a sword cut to the waist, hence sticking the butt out so in front of your partner preventing the tip of the sword from getting stuck and having the tip doing most of the damage.. This position is also more favorable to break the shoulder or elbow.

Also, if you slide forward in a particular fashion, you can go deeper than your partner can step back.

robin_jet_alt 08-31-2013 07:35 PM

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 329547)
Also, unbalncing is done by maintaining strong lock on attacker arm elbow from the moment of the contact all time down + keeping him always in mouvent.
This strong lock serves as a connection to uke center so in the moment of throwing it is enough that nage moves his center across a center of uke and throw happens without doing any waving with the arms.

I can clearly see that the arm lock makes this work, particularly in the faster version. Bill Gleason has an excellent quote about aikido that relies on arm locks to make it work.

Mike, it is really hard to discuss technique online like this. Hopefully one day we will be able to train together to show each other what we mean.

For now, I agree with Janet.


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