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-   -   Aikido or Judo for Police Officer (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229)

C.Mac 08-31-2000 12:32 PM

I will be entering the field of Law Enforcement after finishing up school this year. So I have about 9-10 months to train before I start. I have been reading up on the arts and have narrowed it down to 2, Aikido or Judo. I like the mind set of Aikido but also can picture alot of "hands on" in the near future. Do you think Aikido (my first choice) or Judo would be better to suit me in my job? this is my first post here so please excuse my sloppy message.

Thank you in advance,
Craig

adamk 08-31-2000 02:04 PM

Hi I have been taking aikido for about ten months. I would haved to say that if you trained hard for ten months you could obtain enough knowledge of aikido to use some techniques in an arrest situation. "Yonkyo" seems to be a favorite with police officers. And you night even learn some "knife take away".

But I am pretty sure you could say the same about judo. Within ten months of training you might learn some valuable choking techniques or "reaping" techniques. Both of which could subdue someone on the street.

I'd say that if you can picture yourself up close and wrestling with a criminal take judo. If you want to keep more distance between you and the criminal take aikido.

-adam

C.Mac 08-31-2000 02:25 PM

I think I was not clear in my message.
 
I did not mean to say I want to learn all I can in 10 months. I know it takes years to get good. I just gave the time frame to state my need to learn.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Craig

Nick P. 08-31-2000 02:57 PM

I usually refrain from saying one thing is better than the other, but here goes; in a few short months, your attitude towards resolving conflicts (of any type) will be greatly improved with aikido training. It is one of the first things that changes in you. It forces you to acknowledge that you dont have to win or someone has to loose to resolve a conflict, and after a while people around you start to sense that. It's almost like a sense of self-confidence without the ego factor. I sometimes use the word benovelence (spl?). Combine that with the ability to physically handle the attacks, and you have a collection of powerful tools at your disposal.
Good luck. Keep us posted.

kironin 08-31-2000 04:04 PM

Quote:

C.Mac wrote:
I will be entering the field of Law Enforcement after finishing up school this year. So I have about 9-10 months to train before I start. I have been reading up on the arts and have narrowed it down to 2, Aikido or Judo. I like the mind set of Aikido but also can picture alot of "hands on" in the near future. Do you think Aikido (my first choice) or Judo would be better to suit me in my job? this is my first post here so please excuse my sloppy message.

Thank you in advance,
Craig

Hi Craig!

I think a good teacher of either art would be beneficial. Certainly better
than no training. In my opinion, aikido would certainly be a good choice. I've taught policemen and prison guards in the past and they have uniformly appreciated the training and how it has helpd them do their job better. The current student I have who is a police officer is no different. For the most part he finds how his attitude has changed and how he responds to situations the most helpful part of aikido training. On occasion he has had to even use techniques (a couple of years ago he even had to take away a sword from a disturbed person who was waving it around - saved the person from being shot). I wish fellow officers were interested in training rather than just relying on him as much as they do. A month ago, he told me a story about how he initially got interested in aikido. An instructor at the police academy he went to (I think near Chicago) told him that aikido was not just another tool but that policework is aikido. I am glad you interested and you might even find it rather fun.

-another Craig

stratcat 08-31-2000 10:31 PM

Aikido or Judo?
 
I admit, I have not studied Judo, and I train in Aikido, so I'm biased; but personally I would prefer Aikido, because of the distance involved between subjects. I don't really relish the idea of being as close to an opponent as in Judo.
Having said that, I don't feel one Art is ever better than another. The fact of the matter is that no Art is ever more than what you put into it. Thus what really matters is the practitioner's mindset and attitude. The best bet probably is, if you have the time and means, visit some dojos in each Art, ask around, take some classes in each to get acquainted with their philosophy, to see which one best suits YOUR worldview and philosophy, and THEN choose. There are many fine web sites and books on each Art (I'm sure your local library has some books and periodicals on the subject), which can give some more pointers and clues as to which Art bests suits you.
"Preliminary Research" is VERY important, and cannot be stressed enough, because (I guarantee it)entering a Martial Art is a life- transforming experience, and you want to be sure you make the right choice. Not so much because it'll cause some irreparable harm, but because the sooner you know where you fit, the faster you can start to train! It only takes a little of your time is worth so much in the long run.
In any case, good luck with your career; stay in touch.
Andy G.



Erik 08-31-2000 11:47 PM

There are Aikido programs designed for law enforcement, just as I'm sure there are Judo based programs as well. In fact, I'm pretty sure that George Ledyard does or has done some, although he's a long car ride from Toronto. He might be a good source of advice and you could probably do a search on the forums, hunt down a post and send him an e-mail.


Tony Peters 08-31-2000 11:52 PM

Both
 
Actually I agree with what was written above Both are highly useful The wrist lock and immobilizations of aikido and the grappling (both stand up and ground) of Judo would stand a Cop in good stead. How to mix them is difficult.Many Senior Aikidoka started in Judo before moving on to Aikido (Chiba Sensei) Taking clases in each is not very good as you will end up very confused body wise. A good Jujutsu club (not Brazillian) would be one choice another would be to look for a Tomiki Dojo. They mix the two fairly well taking the onus of sythisizing the arts of your hands.

akira 09-01-2000 03:06 AM

I've heard from people who heard from cops that train in aikido that the suspects, when restrained with aikido locks and techniques are actually more cooperative and some say, "thanks for not hurting me!" :) umm I've never taken judo but I've felt some judo throws... and they're not the most comfortable things in the world to expeirience sometimes, just my experience... I've heard the technique Sankyo (third teaching) is among a favorite of cops, I guess because it's a great restraining move in the sense that after they're in the lock they can't walk around or toward you.

Tony Peters 09-01-2000 12:04 PM

Sankyo
 
Quote:

akira wrote:
I've heard from people who heard from cops that train in aikido that the suspects, when restrained with aikido locks and techniques are actually more cooperative and some say, "thanks for not hurting me!" :) umm I've never taken judo but I've felt some judo throws... and they're not the most comfortable things in the world to expeirience sometimes, just my experience... I've heard the technique Sankyo (third teaching) is among a favorite of cops, I guess because it's a great restraining move in the sense that after they're in the lock they can't walk around or toward you.
I used to volunteer as a cuffing dummy for the Customs Department while I was in Guam. Sankyo is indeed a police favorite as far as aikido locks. Teaching them to do it properly is hillarious...reversals and such. The variation that they are taught at the academy is brutal (but a bit sloppy). I also learned a sankyo technique for moving a prone person who is on their back onto the belly to facilitate cuffing. No openings for the suspect to reach out and touch you no risk to the elbow either, though that doesn't mean it didn't hurt. Where aikido really shines is in prisoner transport. almost every lock can be used as a come-a-long and the general tactics of aikido arevery suitable to the job.


George S. Ledyard 09-01-2000 11:30 PM

Law Enforcement Training
 
Quote:

Erik wrote:
There are Aikido programs designed for law enforcement, just as I'm sure there are Judo based programs as well. In fact, I'm pretty sure that George Ledyard does or has done some, although he's a long car ride from Toronto. He might be a good source of advice and you could probably do a search on the forums, hunt down a post and send him an e-mail.


Hi! Just caught this post. Yes, I do have a Defensive Tactics Program for Security and Law Enforcement Personnel.
See http://www.dtoptions.com
It is not however an Aikido program despite the fact that many of the arrest and control techniques are based on Aikido.

Our program is quite eclectic and combines impact techniques from several arts with control techniques from Aikido and ground work from Jiu Jutsu, etc. As a total system it most closely resembles the Jeet Kun Do work done by Larry Hartsell if you know who he is.

It is my considered opinion that the first skill that you need for law enforcement work is the simple ability to knock an opponent out using empty hand impact techniques. This is because the main reason that use of force problems occur is because the officers involved are scared. Fear of having a situation get out of control causes an officer to escalate the amount of force he is using to subdue a subject. If an officer has the knowledge that he can handle himself in an all out fight if needs be, he has the confidence that allows him to use lesser levels of force because he isn't scared of losing control and getting beaten himself.

Once an officer has the knowledge that he can effectively defend himself, the next set of skills are basic arrest and control techniques which allow him to take a subject down and cuff him without inflicting serious injury on the subject. Aikido techhniques are generally more useful for this level of force as they involve a variety of takedowns and locks that make shifting the subject into cuffing relatively easy. Also, with a bit of adjustment from the standard dojo versions, Aikido takedowns can be easily be done that require no ukemi skills on the part of the subject to avoid injury.

If training time is limited, then focus on just one technique: Sankyo. It is the crescent wrench of the control techniquesw in that it can be used in virtually every context one might encounter. It is a fine escort technique for moving a resistant subject around, it can be used as an effective vehicle extraction technique, In basic arrest and control situations it can be used to take a subject down either backwards or forwards, it can applied easily against both linear and hook type striking techniques as a method of deescalating from an impact situation to control, it can be effectively employed in ground fighting situations to lcok an opponent's arms and get him off you and finally, it is one of the only takedowns that allows the officer to stay on his feet and still maintain a pin (important in multiple subject situations).

Judo ground fighting is useful but since grappling on the the ground is really not what an armed officer wants to do with a subject (weapons retention is an issue) if he can avoid it, and the chokes are basically equivalent to shooting the subject with your firearm in most states, these skills aren't what I would say are primary.

Basic Aikido is a bit too cooperative to be directly relevant for most officers. In Aikido we practice receiving an attack. In most law enforcement applications of force it is the officer who is putting his hands on a subject who is basically eggressive and quite resistant. Unless you practice with this in mind you will find that typical Aikido training doesn't prepare you for the realities of the street. There are many dojo heads whose Aikido is quite advanced who couldn't bring a totally resistant subject under control. Judo has the edge here because it involves competition in which you are throwing a partner who is really trying not to let you throw him. But the techniques are less generally applicable than the Aikido techniques are.

So in conclusion I would say that lacking a program that is specifically deveoted to police techniques (rare) Aikido has the most to offer from the stadpoint of the techniques that you need the most on a daily basis ie, low level force control techniques. But try to set up some training for yourself that is more realistic than typical dojo practice. Take the techniques that you are learing in class and then ask yourself "what do I need to know how to do on the street with real badguys?" Then get a partner and try to practice your Aikido techniques on him to accomplish those tasks.

George S. Ledyard 09-01-2000 11:41 PM

Subject restrained using Aikido Techniques
 
Quote:

akira wrote:
I've heard from people who heard from cops that train in aikido that the suspects, when restrained with aikido locks and techniques are actually more cooperative and some say, "thanks for not hurting me!"
These officers have had a different experience than my guys. In most cases by the time a restraint technique is called for, the subject isn't very inclined to politely defer to the officer. if he was that unserious about resisting good verbal descalation technique would probably have sufficed to gain compliance. Most of my officers report that the resistant subjects usually wail like crazy and scream about police brutality when thay get locked up. One emotionally disturbed female subject yelled "Don't you use those CIA killer techniques on me!" Restraining a mildy resistant subject can be done without causing much pain to the subject but that is contingent in his compliance. A really resistant subject is in a world of hurt when he gets restrained by an Aikido locking technique and they aren't normally appreciative at that moment of the difference betweeen a screamer Sankyo and getting hit with the baton (maybe later when they calm down they get it). In fact the whole idea of a non injurious restraint technique really requires a lack of strong intention to fight on the part of the subject. If he really wants to fight you he is likely to sustain some level of injury because mere pain compliance won't work at that point.


[Edited by George S. Ledyard on September 1, 2000 at 11:47pm]

Tim Haffner 09-02-2000 04:34 PM

Aiki Taihojutsu
 
Let me qualify my statements by saying that I am a certified Defensive Tacticts Instructor witht the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. I can attest that the Basic Recruit training curriculum in our state gathers many techniques from Aikido. In fact, I can easily translate all of the transporters and takedowns into Aikido technique. To name a few:
arm bar is Ikkyo-ude osae
bent wrist or gooseneck wrist is Nikyo or kote mawashi
The State call Sankyo the "elbow up inward turned wrist transporter" in Aikido we call it kote hineri.
They also have the outturned wrist or kotegaeshi as a takedown and one of their knife defenses is our Rokkyo or ude hishigi.
The way they are presented in the academy is obviously different than the way one would learn them in the dojo. I don't think recruits develop confidence or proficiency in these techniques in 80 hours of training and highly recommend Aikido for all law enforcement personnel, but then again I am biased for my love of this art and O'sensei's message.

No matter what you choose to do,do not attempt to use any choking techniques in the field. Very few States authorize the Lateral Vascular Restraint technique and even in that case, you can only use the one that you learned from a Law Enforcement trainer.

More importantly, Aikido training gives law enforcement officers mental calmenss and presence of mind to deal with their daily tasks. I think Ledyard sensei explained this well in regard to violent confrontations. I would submit that this state of mind is also pertinent to dealing with verbal confrontations and general stresses inherent to the work. Breathing exercises and mental calming techniques are now suggested in basic recruit academies, as well as advanced law enforcement course, but they are part and parcel of Aikido training. A definite plus!

If nothing else, the ukemi waza of Aikido are applicable to the street from day one of your training. If you plan on chasing bad guys, you'd better be prepared to fall once in a while. The extra weight on you hips, and/or ankle might suprise you.

I hope this helped you in your decision making process, and good luck with whatever you do.

Tim Haffner

Kevin73 09-03-2000 10:46 AM

Aikido for officers
 
I have been a deputy sheriff for the last 3 yrs. I work inside the jail (houses over 600 inmates) and for the last 1 1/2 yrs. I have been working as the booking officer (where they are brought in after an arrest) and as a rover (person who provides back up for cell extractions, fights, etc.) Unfortunatly because of my job, I have been in over 25 fights. I will try and sum up what I have learned as it applies to Aikido.

1) You will need to learn atemi (our dept. uses PPCT). If you look at Budo, Ueshiba is striking vital points. Most of the time when you go to arrest someone and restrain them, they don't hit back, they plant their feet and try to tighten up so you can't bend their arms etc. Since they are planted you need to use atemi to start their energy going someplace and to loosen them up for a hold or takedown.

2) The shorter the move the better. When you are in a high stress situation, your motor skills decline. So if it requires high amounts of technical skill, it will go out the window. (As time goes on and you are more skilled at fighting, you control the adrenaline dump more and can do things that require higher skill)

3) Come alongs and holds are good for someone that just doesn't want to cooperate, but they are not violent. No matter what some people say, verbal techniques alone do not always work. This is a good time for Sankyo, etc. If the person is drunk or on crack, most of the time they won't even feel the hold. This is when atemi is nice, if the muscle/nerve doesn't work it doesn't matter that they don't feel it.

4) Work on Ikkyo the most. Even the takedown techniques that most departments use are based on ikkyo. They are usually called a bent arm bar takedown, or a straight arm bar takedown, IMHO they are stinky versions of an ikkyo.
As a side note: I recently went to some training where the local colleges defensive instructor was teaching the class and my partner couldn't do the takedown right, so he tried it also and everytime I would end up on my back instead of on my stomach. I then realized it was because the takedown only works if you resist it. If you go with it you end up in a good position with the other person at the disadvantage. So work on what if someone does this to me, what would I do.

5) This is going to sound cheesy philosophical BUT, learn to flow. Most of the time what you do won't work the first time. Learn to go from one thing to another without stopping. I see alot of people (and yes, I've been guilty of this as well) just try to get their favorite hold even though they can't get it.

6) After every confrontation analyze it. Look at what worked and why, and think about what you could have done to make it more effective. If something didn't work look at why. Don't beat yourself up about something, just look at it as a learning experience. You will learn tons of stuff that way.

7) The most important thing, IMHO, is keep a calm mind. I don't mean scared or not scared. But, temper and anger. I have had alot of people comment on that, when I go in a cell on a violent felon that I talk calmly and then take them down without getting mad. It helps you think better and keeps your ego in check which will only get you hurt.

Good luck with your new career and I hope that this helps some. Feel free to email me privately if you want specifics on things like pressure points etc.


C.Mac 09-05-2000 04:43 PM

Thank you all for your insight.
 
Thank you very much for all your kind words and for the great advice.

Craig.


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