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-   -   China and the Methods that Drive IP & Aiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22883)

Carsten Möllering 08-13-2013 01:05 AM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328803)
Many have gone into the chinese internal stuff ...

Yes. One of them was named Ueshiba Morihei ...

graham christian 08-13-2013 05:04 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 328851)
Yes. One of them was named Ueshiba Morihei ...

Aikido made in china. Sounds like a cheap copy to me.

Peace.G.

oisin bourke 08-14-2013 08:36 AM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328881)
Aikido made in china. Sounds like a cheap copy to me.

Peace.G.

I don't comment on these discussions, but for sheer ignorance, you've outdone yourself Graham. Congratulations.

Cady Goldfield 08-14-2013 09:04 AM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Many have gone into the chinese internal stuff ...

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 328851)
Yes. One of them was named Ueshiba Morihei ...

And before him, his teacher -- Sokaku Takeda.

The ideas of ki and aiki weren't created in Japan, in a vacuum. Island nations with no input from anywhere else, would show no trace of any similarity with mainland cultures. Like so many other deep and sophisticated ideas, Japan was liberally immersed in Chinese philosophy and concepts, as well as crafts and arts. Where do you think Japan got kanji from? Its intro to Buddhism? Or sumi-e? Or even tea ceremony and the concept of the landscape garden? Esoteric internal body disciplines were yet another import from China. Among them were, with 99.99% certainty, those that embodied the concepts of ki and aiki.

graham christian 08-14-2013 10:49 AM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 328895)
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Many have gone into the chinese internal stuff ...


And before him, his teacher -- Sokaku Takeda.

The ideas of ki and aiki weren't created in Japan, in a vacuum. Island nations with no input from anywhere else, would show no trace of any similarity with mainland cultures. Like so many other deep and sophisticated ideas, Japan was liberally immersed in Chinese philosophy and concepts, as well as crafts and arts. Where do you think Japan got kanji from? Its intro to Buddhism? Or sumi-e? Or even tea ceremony and the concept of the landscape garden? Esoteric internal body disciplines were yet another import from China. Among them were, with 99.99% certainty, those that embodied the concepts of ki and aiki.

What makes you or anyone think the ideas were from China? Why stop there? Buddhism goes beyond China as does much of what you think originates there. Japanese history is actually more linked to Korea.

But still, all that is irrelevant and minor. Culture is where it's at and culturally Japan developed it's own way. Then when you come to the topic at hand called Aikido then you enter sophisticated ideas which are spiritual based of Japanese Kojiki and Kotodama, shinto and Kami. Very Japanese. "My Aiki is not the aiki of the past"

Being swayed by arguments of chinese internal arts means only you should go study bagua or something rather than trying to mistakenly believe it has anything to do with Ueshiba's art.

I say that using chinese internal arts in the name of Aikido is an insult to both Aikido and Ueshiba.

Peace.G.

graham christian 08-14-2013 10:52 AM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Oisin Bourke wrote: (Post 328893)
I don't comment on these discussions, but for sheer ignorance, you've outdone yourself Graham. Congratulations.

It's not ignorant. Aikido is based on Japanese spiritual. Nothing Chinese about it.

Peace.G.

bkedelen 08-14-2013 11:30 AM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 328895)
Among them were, with 99.99% certainty, those that embodied the concepts of ki and aiki.

Having that kind of certainty must be comforting. It seems that I don't have that luxury.

Cady Goldfield 08-14-2013 12:21 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Yes, Graham, Buddhism came from Nepal-India, but it traveled through the filters of China, to Japan. That's why I used "intro." Furthermore, the foundation and roots of internal body methods now practiced in the Far East may also have been derived from practices in the Near East, but again... through the filter of China they went to Japan. We're talking a couple of thousands of years for ideas to evolve and be adapted into other cultures.

My point, though, is that the methods that drive IP and aiki did not, themselves originate in Japan. They came to Japan from elsewhere. China's huge influence over Japan, and its own various arts and disciplines, points to it as the source. Where China original got its inspirations for various things, is another topic.

The most recent incarnation of what we would

Chris Li 08-14-2013 02:11 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
There's been quite a lot of information put out about the Chinese connections, even a book, but none put out showing that those connections didn't exist or weren't significant, and none showing that what Morihei Ueshiba developed was technically or philosophically unique.

A number of unsupported assertions have been made, however....

Shinto has been mentioned - of course, that's a Chinese word, which first appeared historically in the Nihongi, which was written in Chinese in the classical Chinese style. :D

Korea's also been mentioned, but of course we know that the Korean elements originated in Japan.

As to Indian (or further) connections - sure, that's been mentioned in the past as well, nobody's denied it.

That there was a Chinese influence on Morihei Ueshiba and Aikido is undeniable - he himself stated that it existed. The only question is...how much?

Best,

Chris

graham christian 08-14-2013 02:31 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 328905)
Yes, Graham, Buddhism came from Nepal-India, but it traveled through the filters of China, to Japan. That's why I used "intro." Furthermore, the foundation and roots of internal body methods now practiced in the Far East may also have been derived from practices in the Near East, but again... through the filter of China they went to Japan. We're talking a couple of thousands of years for ideas to evolve and be adapted into other cultures.

My point, though, is that the methods that drive IP and aiki did not, themselves originate in Japan. They came to Japan from elsewhere. China's huge influence over Japan, and its own various arts and disciplines, points to it as the source. Where China original got its inspirations for various things, is another topic.

The most recent incarnation of what we would

The methods that drive IP yes but Aiki no. The methods that drive Aiki are spiritual and not of chinese internal mental/physical methods.

Spiritual Aiki is driven by spiritual disciplines borrowed by whatever person of whatever nationality if spiritually aware enough.

The mind is driven by that of the swordsman as are the movements physically.

Many Japanese concepts quite alien to chinese exist in Aikido. So influences pertinent are purely Japanese from bushido to budo to kotodama and shinto and more.

Spiritual has no nationality actually for it is universal as are the basic principles of Aikido.

Peace.G.

graham christian 08-14-2013 02:44 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 328907)
There's been quite a lot of information put out about the Chinese connections, even a book, but none put out showing that those connections didn't exist or weren't significant, and none showing that what Morihei Ueshiba developed was technically or philosophically unique.

A number of unsupported assertions have been made, however....

Shinto has been mentioned - of course, that's a Chinese word, which first appeared historically in the Nihongi, which was written in Chinese in the classical Chinese style. :D

Korea's also been mentioned, but of course we know that the Korean elements originated in Japan.

As to Indian (or further) connections - sure, that's been mentioned in the past as well, nobody's denied it.

That there was a Chinese influence on Morihei Ueshiba and Aikido is undeniable - he himself stated that it existed. The only question is...how much?

Best,

Chris

Shinto is a religion not a word. The word adopted and used generally is a historical language thing, nothing to do with the religion itself for it is pure Japanese. So some chinese scholar wrote about it....thus making others aware of it......you act like he invented it.

Korean elements originated in Japan? I think the majority of Japanese people themselves originated from korea let alone elements.

Ueshiba I doubt ever stated he was influenced by chinese, that your assertion. He went from Nationalistic to universal. He did often state his major influences though which were spiritual and even blatantly stated they were also the major influences of his Aikido.

So there's no escape if you want to take the influence root.......you have to go spiritual.

Peace.G.

Chris Li 08-14-2013 03:16 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328910)
Shinto is a religion not a word. The word adopted and used generally is a historical language thing, nothing to do with the religion itself for it is pure Japanese. So some chinese scholar wrote about it....thus making others aware of it......you act like he invented it.

Korean elements originated in Japan? I think the majority of Japanese people themselves originated from korea let alone elements.

Ueshiba I doubt ever stated he was influenced by chinese, that your assertion. He went from Nationalistic to universal. He did often state his major influences though which were spiritual and even blatantly stated they were also the major influences of his Aikido.

So there's no escape if you want to take the influence root.......you have to go spiritual.

Peace.G.

Actually, I meant that the Korean elements originated in China, of course.

Shinto (along with everything else Japanese) experienced a heavy influence from Chinese sources - but there's plenty of literature out there on that.

All through the Edo period Shinto was heavily Confucian - and that's not even getting into the Shgendo (a blend of Buddhism and Shinto) links to Morihei Ueshiba.

Ueshiba did indeed cite Chinese sources - here's one of them.

You still haven't provided any support for your assertions.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328910)
The methods that drive IP yes but Aiki no. The methods that drive Aiki are spiritual and not of chinese internal mental/physical methods.

Spiritual Aiki is driven by spiritual disciplines borrowed by whatever person of whatever nationality if spiritually aware enough.

The mind is driven by that of the swordsman as are the movements physically.

Many Japanese concepts quite alien to chinese exist in Aikido. So influences pertinent are purely Japanese from bushido to budo to kotodama and shinto and more.

Spiritual has no nationality actually for it is universal as are the basic principles of Aikido.

You're making assertions, let's see some support for them.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li 08-14-2013 03:31 PM

Re: China and the Methods that Drive IP & Aiki
 
Apparently this got split off, so I'll re-post it here...

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328910)
Shinto is a religion not a word. The word adopted and used generally is a historical language thing, nothing to do with the religion itself for it is pure Japanese. So some chinese scholar wrote about it....thus making others aware of it......you act like he invented it.

Korean elements originated in Japan? I think the majority of Japanese people themselves originated from korea let alone elements.

Ueshiba I doubt ever stated he was influenced by chinese, that your assertion. He went from Nationalistic to universal. He did often state his major influences though which were spiritual and even blatantly stated they were also the major influences of his Aikido.

So there's no escape if you want to take the influence root.......you have to go spiritual.

Peace.G.

Actually, I meant that the Korean elements originated in China, of course.

Shinto (along with everything else Japanese) experienced a heavy influence from Chinese sources - but there's plenty of literature out there on that.

All through the Edo period Shinto was heavily Confucian - and that's not even getting into the Shgendo (a blend of Buddhism and Shinto) links to Morihei Ueshiba.

Ueshiba did indeed cite Chinese sources - here's one of them.

You still haven't provided any support for your assertions.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328910)
The methods that drive IP yes but Aiki no. The methods that drive Aiki are spiritual and not of chinese internal mental/physical methods.

Spiritual Aiki is driven by spiritual disciplines borrowed by whatever person of whatever nationality if spiritually aware enough.

The mind is driven by that of the swordsman as are the movements physically.

Many Japanese concepts quite alien to chinese exist in Aikido. So influences pertinent are purely Japanese from bushido to budo to kotodama and shinto and more.

Spiritual has no nationality actually for it is universal as are the basic principles of Aikido.

You're making assertions, let's see some support for them.

Best,

Chris

bkedelen 08-14-2013 03:41 PM

Re: China and the Methods that Drive IP & Aiki
 
I have never understood how discovering and verifying that China had a butterfly effect on the core principles of Daito Ryu and Aikido is relevant to the acquisition of relevant martial skill. Maybe it is just an academic pursuit?

Anyone who is effectively doing similar stuff can be a resource for us, and they have been for a while now. I don't see how the nationality of that resource is significant.

Based on my understanding of how much good CMA is out there vs how much good JMA is out there, I think its much more likely these days that we would be a resource for them.

graham christian 08-14-2013 04:00 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 328912)
Actually, I meant that the Korean elements originated in China, of course.

Shinto (along with everything else Japanese) experienced a heavy influence from Chinese sources - but there's plenty of literature out there on that.

All through the Edo period Shinto was heavily Confucian - and that's not even getting into the Shgendo (a blend of Buddhism and Shinto) links to Morihei Ueshiba.

Ueshiba did indeed cite Chinese sources - here's one of them.

You still haven't provided any support for your assertions.

You're making assertions, let's see some support for them.

Best,

Chris

You're just playing word games. From stating "he himself stated he was influenced by chinese" to now the lesser " he cited chinese sources" is quite a come down. As I said, he never stated he had any chinese influence.

As for your "example given" it has nothing to do with chinese. Once again a chinese scholar or someone wrote those words but the concept is not of chinese origin. It's a spiritual concept and so all it proves is his awareness of the reality of such concepts.

Maybe you think chinese invented the principles underlying yin and yang.

Shinto is native Japanese shamanistic religion. Shamanistic other spiritual practices over the centuries may well have influences, shingon buddhism for example, but still irrelevant. Shinto is unique as an entity, Japanese.

I can cite jewish or chinese or japanese or arabic or indian sources to get a concept across to others does that mean I am influenced by them? No, it means I use them.

So citing does not equal influenced by so end of argument.

Spiritual texts is what he studied and practiced.

I make spiritual assertions and so don't need to back them up for Ueshiba backed them up in virtually everything he said. In just about every interview given to uchideshi you will hear them say he explained aikido in spiritual terms and they didn't understand. Take your pick.

Still today what's new? I wrote "a little story about Ki" which was taken off the spiritual section. Just shows the scene hasn't changed much. The subject of Ki is in at least three threads now and none of them under spiritual. So once again no change there, people still don't understand.

All that's left is debate on irrelevant things like trying to make things physical or chinese.

Ueshiba was all his life on a spiritual path so all influences pertinent were spiritual. The five minds of budo are spiritual disciplines and so align well for the true student. The true student must study the spiritual otherwise they are just doing some scholarly exercise not martial study.

Peace.G.

Chris Li 08-14-2013 04:03 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328916)
You're just playing word games. From stating "he himself stated he was influenced by chinese" to now the lesser " he cited chinese sources" is quite a come down.

Dude, he's quoting a classical Chinese text and saying that it is the secret of his Aikido. It doesn't get much more influential than that.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328916)
I make spiritual assertions and so don't need to back them up

This is where I get off.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li 08-14-2013 04:06 PM

Re: China and the Methods that Drive IP & Aiki
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 328915)
I have never understood how discovering and verifying that China had a butterfly effect on the core principles of Daito Ryu and Aikido is relevant to the acquisition of relevant martial skill. Maybe it is just an academic pursuit?

Anyone who is effectively doing similar stuff can be a resource for us, and they have been for a while now. I don't see how the nationality of that resource is significant.

Based on my understanding of how much good CMA is out there vs how much good JMA is out there, I think its much more likely these days that we would be a resource for them.

The argument is that there is much more than a butterfly effect.

Of course, there's plenty of bad CMA out there (just as there's plenty of bad JMA) - but the Chinese models, tend to have a more detailed and thorough methodology and terminology. That's why many people find it useful.

Just being able to do something doesn't mean that you're able to pass it on effectively. That's why so many star athletes turn out to be crappy coaches.

Best,

Chris

graham christian 08-14-2013 04:19 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 328917)
Dude, he's quoting a classical Chinese text and saying that it is the secret of his Aikido. It doesn't get much more influential than that.

This is where I get off.

Best,

Chris

He didn't say it was the secret of Aikido. There is no secret. He pointed out to a person concerned what that particular person or group of persons were not understanding. He no doubt pointed out other principles to others when they were lacking them.

I can just see them now running away and expounding how he has told them the secret too.

Yin and yang is basically a no brainer rather than a secret. Unless of course you're not used to such spiritual concepts in which case it will be like some special secret.

Non resistance is a 'secret' of Aikido too, as is kokyu and universal love and the spirit of loving protection and of course Ki. Not forgetting the void...zero....koshi....of course. Many 'secrets'' ;)

Peace.G.

Chris Li 08-14-2013 04:26 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328919)
He didn't say it was the secret of Aikido.

His exact words were (in English) "this is the secret of Aikido".

And now this is really where I get off.

Best,

Chris

graham christian 08-14-2013 05:00 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 328920)
His exact words were (in English) "this is the secret of Aikido".

And now this is really where I get off.

Best,

Chris

He said the secret of Aikido was to do with the natural universal movements and he also said the secret of Aikido was not how to move your feet but how to move your mind for he teaches nonviolence. He said the secret of was thus many things. He said the secret when taking on tenryu the sumo was the circle.

So it's best when speaking English not to use the term secret at all unless you're trying to sell newspapers because it sounds just like a headline attention grabbing statement. Best use the proper term rather than the mystical intriguing term and that would be principle.

Then put that in context by saying it is a principle rather than the principle.

Peace.G.

Cady Goldfield 08-14-2013 05:43 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Yes, quite comforting. :) Morihei Ueshiba quoted directly from the Chinese classics to describe ki and aiki, and his role as a perceived avatar of these forces. It doesn't get much more certain than that.

To address the OP's concerns about the use of "ki" in aikido training, it's not "ki" that's dangerous, but improper instruction (often coming from incomplete understanding) and improper practice of the methods that condition the body to create, balance and apply the complementary forces that generate power. IMO, if a teacher can't demonstrate and explain to you, in clear terms, what he/she is doing and would have you do, and what the purpose and predictable outcomes are, then whatever they are purporting to teach is questionable and the student should beware.

Chris Li 08-14-2013 05:45 PM

Re: Practicing Ki is dangerous?!
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 328921)
He said the secret of Aikido was to do with the natural universal movements and he also said the secret of Aikido was not how to move your feet but how to move your mind for he teaches nonviolence. He said the secret of was thus many things. He said the secret when taking on tenryu the sumo was the circle.

So it's best when speaking English not to use the term secret at all unless you're trying to sell newspapers because it sounds just like a headline attention grabbing statement. Best use the proper term rather than the mystical intriguing term and that would be principle.

Then put that in context by saying it is a principle rather than the principle.

Peace.G.

And every single one of those comes from classical Chinese sources, I've discussed some of them before.

I used the term because he did - and attention grabbing or not, in Japanese or English it indicates a thing of some importance.

There's a Japanese word for "principle" and he didn't use it in this case. He did in many others, so he clearly understood the difference.

Third times the charm, now I'm really out. :D

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield 08-14-2013 05:48 PM

Re: China and the Methods that Drive IP & Aiki
 
Chris, you need an intervention. Here, let me help you to the door... :D

Keith Larman 08-14-2013 07:16 PM

Re: China and the Methods that Drive IP & Aiki
 
Chris isn't the one who needs the intervention IMHO.

Cady Goldfield 08-14-2013 08:05 PM

Re: China and the Methods that Drive IP & Aiki
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 328928)
Chris isn't the one who needs the intervention IMHO.

No, some of us really do need an intervention for continuing to try to shine the light of logic and rationality (not to mention empirical fact) through a concrete wall. It becomes an almost unstoppable compulsion and only a server crash or the help of a sturdy friend can help break the spiral of doom! :p


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