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dapidmini 05-30-2013 12:00 AM

how to classify kokyunage
 
me and my friends in our dojo have been discussion about what techniques can be classified as kokyunage. especially since the kyu exams are coming up, the examinees are getting anxious..:dead: some people say that kokyunage are throws that don't already have a specific name (iriminage, kotegaeshi, udekimenage, etc), but some other say that kokyunage are any throws that uses the kokyu.:cool:

what is kokyunage in your opinion? which is correct?:confused:

JJF 05-30-2013 02:19 AM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
The way I understand it Kokyu nage are 'breath' throws - or 'flow' throws. It's the types of throws that we do in order to single out the principle of allowing the power of uke to go forward in a simple manner so that you as nage focus onbody movement, breath and not obstructing the momentum of uke rather than on doing a specific lock or throw.

Tenchi nage is sort of a weird in-between technique as I see it. It's based on kokyo to a large extend, but also requires some rather precise hand movements/positions in order to work. I will allow it as a kokyonage at a grading, but there are so many others to choose from..

Hope it helps

JJ

Also.. google is your friend:
http://www.aikido-world.com/highligh...s/kokunage.htm
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2661

lbb 05-30-2013 07:58 AM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Kokyunage = what we call it when we don't know what else to call it:D

ChrisHein 05-30-2013 12:28 PM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
It's a tricky one. First off, ask your sensei, they know what they will expect of you on a test, and how your specific Dojo defines "Kokyu Nage".

However in the world of Aikido, Kokyu nage is a tricky one. Saito Sensei seems to use Kokyu nage as a catch all for odd ball throws. I have also heard it said that any throw done with "kokyu" can be called a Kokyu nage, however all Aikido throws use kokyu, so why have any other names? Well because that would get super hard to understand what we were talking about. At our dojo we define a "classic" Kokyu nage as the side by side throw where both Uke and Nage are facing the same direction, like this http://www.aikidostudent.com/oldasc/content/?p=238

Every Aikido throw is kind of like this, I think Ueshiba was pointing at principles when he named his techniques, and not the mechanical specifics of the throw. Irimi Nage, can be done many different ways, in fact one variation of Irimi nage is the exact throw I showed above as Kokyu nage- it can be called an Irimi nage as well though, because you must enter with your body to do that throw. When it comes to naming the Nage waza of Aikido you have to get a feeling of what part is important in the variation you are doing, then it's clear as to why a teacher would call one throw something (like irimi, kokyu, kaiten) instead of calling it something else, the main principle of the throw is the important part, not the mechanical specifics. This all makes understanding Aikido nomenclature very difficult for the newer student.

Hope that helps!

When I teach I always refer to techniques as "classic" when I say that my students know that I'm saying this is the mechanical specifics of the throw most commonly called by whatever name I'm using. Some times I will even say something like this is a "classic Iwama" or "classic Aikikai" etc, so they know that one lineage uses that name to describe these mechanical specifics. So again, ask your Sensei, they know what they want to see on tests, and can give you their interpretation of why a throw should be given a specific name.

Basia Halliop 05-30-2013 02:08 PM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Lots of techniques can be called kokyunage but you said you're asking for testing purposes, and your Sensei may have a specific technique or techniques that he'd like you demonstrate for the test. Ask your sempais and/or sensei.

graham christian 05-30-2013 06:38 PM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Actually I'd say it translates nicely as spiritual. Spiritual 'throws' or techniques.

Peace.G.

SeiserL 05-31-2013 06:43 AM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
I tend to think of kokyu-nage as breathe, timing, and flow throws.

IMHO, all waza are kokyu-nage.

I have trained in several dojos that label waza differently. Check with the one you train in.

MRoh 06-03-2013 06:54 AM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
In daito-ryu the term 'kokyu-nage' ist related to a special group of techniques. In Aikdo most people in fact mean all the techniques having no special names.
Often kokyu-nage techiques are executed in a way that uke comes running and is thrown by its own kinetic energy.
I remeber having read that this kind of throwing was only for demonstrations.

oisin bourke 06-03-2013 07:41 AM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 327113)
In daito-ryu the term 'kokyu-nage' ist related to a special group of techniques. In Aikdo most people in fact mean all the techniques having no special names.
Often kokyu-nage techiques are executed in a way that uke comes running and is thrown by its own kinetic energy.
I remeber having read that this kind of throwing was only for demonstrations.

Where did you hear this?

Chris Li 06-03-2013 10:20 AM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Quote:

Oisin Bourke wrote: (Post 327114)
Where did you hear this?

My guess would be:

Quote:

Moderator: Was the training method then different than it is now?

Kobayashi: It was exactly the same, the same, but joint techniques, techniques that twisted and strengthened the joints, were the most common. To my recollection, techniques like Kokyu-nage were only done after we started giving demonstrations.

Since it would be just unbearable to watch everyone do Ikkyo or Nikyo (in a demonstration) they created techniques that could be done with a single movement. So, if you did those techniques in front of Ueshiba O-Sensei you would be scolded. He'd say things like - it's just impossible to throw anybody that way.
Yasuo Kobayashi and Fumiko Nakayama - Living Aikido: Part 1

Best,

Chris

oisin bourke 06-03-2013 10:27 AM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 327118)

Oh, I see. I read Markus's post/description as pertaining to Daito Ryu and it seemed strange. FWIW, I never heard techniques in DR being referred to as Kokyu nage. The term Kuki was used. However, different factions may have different terminology for all I know.

Chris Li 06-03-2013 10:45 AM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Quote:

Oisin Bourke wrote: (Post 327119)
Oh, I see. I read Markus's post/description as pertaining to Daito Ryu and it seemed strange. FWIW, I never heard techniques in DR being referred to as Kokyu nage. The term Kuki was used. However, different factions may have different terminology for all I know.

Ahh - I thought that you were talking about the part at the end.

Best,

Chris

oisin bourke 06-03-2013 11:20 AM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 327120)
Ahh - I thought that you were talking about the part at the end.

Best,

Chris

That too, but your post clarified it.

Rob Watson 06-03-2013 12:50 PM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Whatever it is for kyu grades the important part is being able to into position to execute so work on that from myriad attack forms (or at least those expected to appear on the next test).

MRoh 06-03-2013 01:46 PM

Re: how to classify kokyunage
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 327118)

Yes, that's the source :).

Quote:

Oisin Bourke wrote: (Post 327119)
Oh, I see. I read Markus's post/description as pertaining to Daito Ryu and it seemed strange. FWIW, I never heard techniques in DR being referred to as Kokyu nage. The term Kuki was used. However, different factions may have different terminology for all I know.

Sorry, I screwed it up with the term 'aiki-waza', which are the foundation of the takumakai soden group.


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