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-   -   Where does "Morote Dori" come from? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22657)

ChrisHein 05-11-2013 11:16 PM

Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
So I've been compiling Aikido techniques for awhile now. Today I was going through morote dori attacks, and it just hit me that there is no morote dori in Budo Renshuu. Then I looked at "Budo" and the Noma Dojo photos (the one's I have access to) and I didn't find any morote dori there either. I know Saito Sensei says that morote dori kokyu nage (ho) is a corner stone to Aikido training, but I haven't found any print versions of Ueshiba dealing with a morote dori attack.

Any ideas about this?

kidoman 05-12-2013 10:21 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
I recall Morote Dori being called katate dori ryo mochi or ryote mochi.

ChrisHein 05-13-2013 12:39 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
In Budo Renshuu, the techniques listed for "te" are:
Te, katate- wich are all one handed "katate" grabs
Kokyu ryote- which is a ryote dori- both hands grabbed
Mune to te- which is a chest and hand grab
Tekubi- which are all ushiro ryote or both hands grabbed from behind.

In the other works I sited, I also don't see a reference to "katate dori ryo mochi" or "ryote moch". It does however seem that all of the major devisions of Aikido have a "two on one" type grab, even if they don't call them "morote dori". I just haven't seen Ueshiba doing it, although I'd guess he did, because all of his major students do. I'm just wondering when and where it came from.

sorokod 05-13-2013 05:29 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Not a "print" version but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LELJJkFIxk#t=00m20s

Rob Watson 05-13-2013 11:27 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 326570)

Pay very close attention to what goes on that segment. Interesting things to be seen there. It is not important what I see but what do you see? 0:18-0:23 a lot can happen in 5 seconds.

ChrisHein 05-13-2013 12:33 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 326570)

Hey, good looking! I've seen a few pictures, where he is demonstrating kokyu, and he he has his attackers holding with two hands, which is what this looks like here. I really wonder want Ueshiba's daily lessons looked like and at what point a "two on one" type grab became common place, and why that happened.

Does anyone know if a two on one type grab is part of the Shin'ei taido syllabus?

Ethan Weisgard 05-14-2013 04:56 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Saito Sensei always made the point that uke's holding / grabbing techniques were all based on controlling nage; not letting nage be able to use the hand / hands to launch an atemi against the attacker. When holding kata dori uke should be able to block a punch from nage (from either hand). Morote dori (also called Ryote mochi) was shown as a technique to control nage - uke should be using the two-handed grip to control nage's elbow and thereby keeping nage "at bay." Sensei also sometimes explained that the original Morote Dori called for uke to start by striking ("calling out") nage's hand by way of extending tegatana towards nage's face, starting from the position of the leading hand placed down by the forward hip and leading straight up the centerline to nage's face. This is, by the way, the kihon form that is taught in the Iwama lineage for Shomen Uchi ( in this case it is nage that initiates the "from below to above / towards the face" tegatana / atemi). Sensei would use the Kuden "Aite no ki wo yobidasu" - to call out the opponent's ki.

But I digress :-)
Morote dori was taught very often in Iwama by Saito Sensei, as well as at many of his seminars, always with the focus being on using the hold to control nage - using the slight twist / turn of nage's arm to lock the elbow. We were taught to call out the Morote Dori grip by extending our forearm towards uke with the little finger towards uke (our thumb towards ourself), thereby setting up the proper control grip for uke.

In regard to O-Sensei's use of Morote dori - I would have to say that Saito Sensei would not put as much emphasis on this holding technique as he did unless O-Sensei also taught it extensively.

I hope this can clarify things to some extent.

In aiki,
Ethan

ChrisHein 05-14-2013 11:03 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Quote:

Ethan Weisgard wrote: (Post 326615)
In regard to O-Sensei's use of Morote dori - I would have to say that Saito Sensei would not put as much emphasis on this holding technique as he did unless O-Sensei also taught it extensively.

My feelings are the same as yours. I believe Saito Sensei tried with great effort to show Aikido the way he learned it from Ueshiba in Iwama. From what has been recorded of Ueshiba's work before the Iwama years would suggest that earlier in his career, he didn't do much (if any) two to one hand holding attacks. I wonder why this is?

To me, being from the Iwama lineage, I think of Morote Dori as a very prominent attack. I was shocked to see that Ueshiba didn't emphasize it in his early work. Makes me curious.

Andrew S 05-14-2013 02:20 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Might it be worthwhile seeing what the Daito Ryu books have to say on the subject?
I'm currently reading Tasuo Kimura's Discovering Aiki, and a fair number of the techniques shown (admittedly, usually with multiple attackers) use morote dori.

RLW 05-14-2013 05:03 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
This topic calls this video to mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

It predates Iwama by a short time, although he would've been 52 in this vido so I don't know if that's early enough.
If I had to argue with myself I might suggest that his constant motion during the set-ups and grabs does make dicerning the intended attacks a bit difficult, I see some two hand grabs that may have been ushiro attacks that Ueshiba turned into something else and such. Also alot of throws are started with his arm extended latterally, and that's certainly not kihon.

However, at 5:37, except that he moves back away from uke instead of dirictly adjacent, his throw is almost exactly how I have been taught to do one variation of morote-dori kokyunage in the Shingu lineage (Hikitsuchi > Mary Heiny > My teacher).

There are also attacks from two uke's in this video. As far as what was heavily emphisized in his earlier teaching: my lightly educated imput is that I have seen some evidence in recent years that implies his techniques as having come almost exclusively from Daito Ryu. But I don't think anyone has implied too much that he wasn't making stuff up or eccentricly demonstrating techniques whithout putting much emphasis on any details of them, this was a common reflection and sometimes complaint of his students, no?

ChrisHein 05-15-2013 01:37 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Quote:

Richard Woods wrote: (Post 326646)
However, at 5:37, except that he moves back away from uke instead of dirictly adjacent, his throw is almost exactly how I have been taught to do one variation of morote-dori kokyunage in the Shingu lineage (Hikitsuchi > Mary Heiny > My teacher).

I would agree! That is a classic example of morote dori kokyu nage!

It is hard when comparing Daito ryu and Aikido syllabus, because as time has gone on, much is shared between the two. With out a historic written account of the techniques it would be hard to say for certain that they didn't both start showing the appearance of morote dori at the same time. But it is a good idea, what is the oldest written account of Daito ryu? That might at least give us some ideas about a time.

Thanks for the great replies!

graham christian 05-15-2013 04:00 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Does this fit?

http://youtu.be/_C6wo7J8qkc

That would mean it was in Aikibudo?

Peace.G.

Rupert Atkinson 05-15-2013 10:34 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
I previously had a similar question about irimi/tenkan. Apparently Ueshiba didn't teach it the way we commonly learn it today: 2 irimi then 2 tenkan. (Correct me if I'm wrong though). This was divised by Kishomaru, his son, so I heard. If you look at Yoshinkan it is not done that way either. Likewise the kata in the Tomiki style. Nor in the Kyushin Aikido style as found in the UK (Kenshiro Abe). Iwama do it though. All interesting stuff ... is it not? Makes you wonder why we do what we do without question.

Ethan Weisgard 05-16-2013 01:58 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Most of the footage we have of O-Sensei is from demonstrations. Saito Sensei told us that O-Sensei taught quite differently in comparison to what he showed at demonstrations. There is some footage of O-Sensei actually teaching students ( I don't remember the DVD it is on, but it is one of the Aikido Journal clips). Here you see O-Sensei doing a series of suwari waza techniques, very systematically. By the way: you see him leading out with shomen uchi - calling the uke's tegatana forth to use the arm for a technique. There is one time when the uke strikes first, and O-Sensei slaps his hand away, and then starts the technique again where he himself leads in.

But I digress :-) Saito Sensei often said that O-Sensei taught methodically in Iwama. I think that what we see on the footage from demonstrations is what O-Sensei felt would represent Aikido best for this purpose. Saito Sensei said that O-Sensei would often take one attack and then show a series of techniques against this attack. Or take one technique and show it against many different attacks.

So to me it makes sense that O-Sensei would teach techniques from, for instance, Morote dori - a grip, by the way, that is a very strong control against nage - but would not necessarily use it in his demonstrations.

In aiki,
Ethan

graham christian 05-16-2013 09:11 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
http://youtu.be/1LELJJkFIxk

Lots and lots in this one, just after he falls over at 2.0 mins.

Peace.G.

graham christian 05-16-2013 03:18 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
http://youtu.be/pNF9uO1d5Kk

Funny how things happen. Someone just posted this on facebook. (you'll need to understand japanese though) The English given on facebook was about how O'Sensei taught morote dori and what he said about it.

Peace.G.

akiy 05-16-2013 04:04 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 326742)
http://youtu.be/pNF9uO1d5Kk

Funny how things happen. Someone just posted this on facebook. (you'll need to understand japanese though) The English given on facebook was about how O'Sensei taught morote dori and what he said about it.

The narrator in the above video is not attributing anything he is saying to Morihei Ueshiba nor is he explicitly referencing him during the clip.

-- Jun

graham christian 05-16-2013 04:37 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote: (Post 326745)
The narrator in the above video is not attributing anything he is saying to Morihei Ueshiba nor is he explicitly referencing him during the clip.

-- Jun

http://sakuramairim.blogspot.com/201...i-kokyuho.html

o.k. Jun, I stand corrected on the assumption re: Japanese. The link above is where the added English appears.

Peace.G.

ChrisHein 05-16-2013 10:30 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Considering that there are no morote dori attacks in Budo renshuu, Budo and nothing in Aikido Densho, I would guess that early on Ueshiba wasn't teaching morote dori attack defense.

I wonder where and when morote first began in the Aiki tradition. There are lot's of curious things I come across the more I look at prewar Aiki(budo/do). It is interesting!

Carsten Möllering 05-17-2013 03:52 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Given the importance of morote dori kokyo ho in the teaching of Saito sensei, I find it intriguing, that Endo sensei says in one of his DVDs about the very basics of (his) aikidō that "how our predecessors did this thing called morote-dori-kokyuho, how they did it the basic way - we no longer know."
As far as I understand "predecessors" refers to Takeda Sokaku, Daito ryū etc.

Aikilove 05-17-2013 08:26 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Quote:

Ethan Weisgard wrote: (Post 326709)
Most of the footage we have of O-Sensei is from demonstrations. Saito Sensei told us that O-Sensei taught quite differently in comparison to what he showed at demonstrations. There is some footage of O-Sensei actually teaching students ( I don't remember the DVD it is on, but it is one of the Aikido Journal clips). Here you see O-Sensei doing a series of suwari waza techniques, very systematically. By the way: you see him leading out with shomen uchi - calling the uke's tegatana forth to use the arm for a technique. There is one time when the uke strikes first, and O-Sensei slaps his hand away, and then starts the technique again where he himself leads in.

I always found these two snippets from from the Aikidojournal production: "Morihei Ueshiba and Aikido - Takemusu aiki" to be the main source of visual input to how O-sensei actually taught aikido techniques. Note, that in the second clip there are material cut out from the video where the student actually practice for a few brief moments the techniques the founder just showed.Then the founder shows another technique two times and off the students get to practice for a couple of seconds.

http://youtu.be/YtkG2yKqCbQ?t=7m42s
and
http://youtu.be/YtkG2yKqCbQ?t=23m53s

phitruong 05-17-2013 08:48 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
wonder if it has something to do with law enforcement restraint approach, i.e. two LEOs restraint an unruly samurai or some such. if it is, the wouldn't that make the practice to counter LEO?

George S. Ledyard 05-17-2013 10:31 AM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
Mototetori is just the setup for a classic jiu justu technique that locks the elbow and throws you to the ground. You can see this technique in old Hiroshige woodblocks. When done properly, it could be applied to nuetralize a sword draw. It comes from Jiu Jutsu 101. It certainly is not an attack by itself, it is a training tool. But there's no way O-Sensei wasn't doing morotetori... every jiu jutsu school has this attack, as does Daito Ryu.

ChrisHein 05-17-2013 09:11 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
I agree that it would seem that Morote dori is an important part of Aikido- But when looking at the references we have to early Aikido/Aikibudo, the attack isn't there.

Rupert Atkinson 05-23-2013 11:08 PM

Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?
 
well, maybe you should look in Daito-ryu as that is what Ueshiba taught for a considerable time.


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