AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Techniques (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Source of the naming conventions? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22617)

PeterR 04-28-2013 07:23 AM

Source of the naming conventions?
 
Over beer last night I was asked a question I could not even pretend I knew the answer to.

When/who introduced the naming conventions for the aikido techniques. Specifically the Ikkyo .... series. When was it first published.

The source of the name I heard last night made no sense to me - but |I could not give a good counter answer.

philipsmith 04-28-2013 09:57 AM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Hi Peter

check out the alternative names thread on the technical forum for a similar discussion. I believe Nidai Doshu formalized the current nomenclature.

PeterR 04-28-2013 03:12 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Philip Smith wrote: (Post 326126)
Hi Peter

check out the alternative names thread on the technical forum for a similar discussion. I believe Nidai Doshu formalized the current nomenclature.

Thanks Philip;

I had always attributed to Aikikai's second doshu but the point was raised why would Shioda name the same techniques Ikkajo, etc. It was suggested the nomenclature was earlier than that.

At that point I nodded gravely and drank some more beer.

Janet Rosen 04-28-2013 03:47 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 326127)
At that point I nodded gravely and drank some more beer.

Always a safe path :)

Ellis Amdur 04-28-2013 04:29 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
I just looked at the pre-war book by Sunadomari Kanemoto:

We see, there:
There is suwariwaza, hanmi-handachi, irimi, tai no henka, shihonage, aikikinage (not that's not a typo). Otherwise, the techniques are named only by the part of the body attacked.

Chris Li 04-28-2013 08:47 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 326127)
Thanks Philip;

I had always attributed to Aikikai's second doshu but the point was raised why would Shioda name the same techniques Ikkajo, etc. It was suggested the nomenclature was earlier than that.

At that point I nodded gravely and drank some more beer.

I would think that Shioda wouldn't have been naming things until he opened the Yoshinkan - in 1955, around the same time that Aikikai Hombu got rolling again...

Best,

Chris

Ellis Amdur 04-29-2013 12:24 AM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
I do not have copies - what are the names of techniques in Ueshiba's two pre-war books. Budo Renshu and - - - can't remember the other name?

Chris Li 04-29-2013 12:37 AM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 326138)
I do not have copies - what are the names of techniques in Ueshiba's two pre-war books. Budo Renshu and - - - can't remember the other name?

There aren't really any names in either Budo or Budo Renshu - in Budo most of the listings are by attack (with some response given), or different types of "tanren" and conditioning exercises.

Of course, you have to remember that he was handing out Daito-ryu scrolls during the period that those books were written - and I assume that they would have contained the technique names (the Daito-ryu names).

Best,

Chris

PeterR 04-29-2013 02:57 AM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 326139)
There aren't really any names in either Budo or Budo Renshu - in Budo most of the listings are by attack (with some response given), or different types of "tanren" and conditioning exercises.

Of course, you have to remember that he was handing out Daito-ryu scrolls during the period that those books were written - and I assume that they would have contained the technique names (the Daito-ryu names).

Best,

Chris

So considering the differences (in spelling) and similarities (techniques) the naming conventions would have been evolving before Shioda started the Yoshinkan but probably not much before. Wandering now about usage in Iwama.

philipsmith 04-29-2013 06:26 AM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Although I still think that Nidai Doshu formalized current nomenclature I think the terminology had been around for a long time. As I understand it he tried to clear up the confusion of the same technique being called different things by different instructors.
So Ikkyo was Ikkyo or Ikkajo or ude osae depending on who was teaching for example.

Scott Harrington 04-29-2013 01:03 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
1 kajo 2 kajo 3 kajo 4 -- You say IKkyo and I say ikkajo, or ude osae or ippon dori or…..

From a quick on-line check:
Ikkyo -- first teaching
Ikkajo -- first clause

The use of Ikkajo is oft hooked up with supposed Daito ryu roots. Actually Ikkajo just refers to the first CHAPTER of the Hiden Mokuroku which include many techniques, the first being ude osae (arm pin)

In the "Secret Teachings of Self Defense" this technique is called Uchiteomote. This involves a strike first, then the standard ikkyo movement and following pin.

So, a couple of things.

Use of Kyo (teaching) took away from the ‘collected techniques' meaning of kajo which can mean bullet point or organized items from a larger work (The Hiden M.) This was probably Aikido trying to distance itself from its Daito ryu roots (which is documented) and also simplify the convoluted structure.

The ST of SD, an undocumented copy of much of the Budo Renshu has a wide range of named techniques which are rarely called that today let alone used today. (e.g. Yubiori, uchikudaki, tsubamegaeshi, uchiteura, sodetawoshi (which today would be single hand shoulder / upper arm grasp to ikkkyo), and my favorite - gansekiotoshi (not Saito's version but an elbow lock over the shoulder to a throw.)

Looking at the French manual "L'Aiki-Do La Victorire" we see the author Tadashi Abe and Jean Zin still using the kajo format in the 1950's - early 1960's edition. There are separate different techniques in each labeled ‘kajo section. Close to modern Aikido in look.

The French book "Methode d' Aikido Jiu Jitsu by Minoru Mochizuki with Jim Alcheik (mid 1950's) is set up solely by technique name followed by various attacks countered with that particular waza. Interesting is Yuki Chigae is the name used for Sankyo (3rd control). Also has a very DANGEROUS neck technique at the end which you RARELY see anymore in the Aikido curriculum. Much more dangerous than that listed under men nage (head throw) in the Cranes' tapes and book.

So it seems, there was some carryover of names from the old Daito ryu (which also listed a large number as only numbers) but also a wide range of grouping. The Nidai had to contend with instructors that had studied under his father while he still taught Daito ryu. It must have been a concerted effort to standardize format and nomenclature and safety like Kano of Judo to help introduce this initially small art to the western world.
Scott Harrington

Cliff Judge 04-29-2013 02:24 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
It would make a nice story if ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo were contrived as distillations of the corresponding series of kata in the Hiden Mokuroku.

I.e. ikkyo captures the core principal of the ikkajo series, nikyo captures the core principle of the nikkajo series, etc.

This is something I have heard before but it is almost too tidy to hope for.

odudog 04-29-2013 07:15 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
From all of my teaching materials, Osensei just paired down the names of the techniques. Aikido still contains many of the techniques from Daito-ryu, we just don't distinguish a lot of them only because one insignificant movement changed. As was stated before, kajo, of the ikkajo means the volume of a series. Budo Renshu doesn't name any techniques, they are all numbered. Shioda Sensei was the first student receiving permission from Osensei to go and teach, therefore, Yoshinkan contains a lot of the technique verbiage as Daito-ryu for that was the way Osensei was teaching at that time.

Here are the techniques of Daito-ryu's Ikkajo in order:

 ippon dori 一本捕 one long thing grab
 gyaku ude dori 逆腕捕 reverse arm grab (nikyo omote)
 hiji gaeshi 肘返し elbow return
 kuruma daoshi 車倒し carriage throw (sumi otoshi)
 shime kaeshi 絞め返し choke return (kokyu nage)
 daki jime 抱締め hug (a person) choke
 karami nage 手扌弱投 entangle, bind throw (juji nage)
 kote gaeshi 小手返し return wrist (reverse kote gaeshi)
 nukite dori 抜手捕 withdraw grab
 hiza shime 膝締め knee hug
 hanmi nage 半身投 half body throw
 ura otoshi 裏落 rear drop
 izori 居友 sitting backwards body drop
 kata otoshi 肩落 shoulder drop
 irimi nage 入身投 enter body throw (shiho nage)
 koshi guruma 腰車 lower back carry
 obi otoshi 帯落 belt drop
 kiri kaeshi 切返し cutoff return (a twisting backward knee trip)
 shiho nage 四方投 four direction throw
 tachieri dori 五襟捕 standing collar grab
 ryokata hineri 両肩捻 both shoulder twist
 ryohiji gaeshi 両肘返し both elbow return
 takano tsume 詰め stopper

Cliff Judge 04-29-2013 07:26 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 326154)
From all of my teaching materials, Osensei just paired down the names of the techniques. Aikido still contains many of the techniques from Daito-ryu, we just don't distinguish a lot of them only because one insignificant movement changed. As was stated before, kajo, of the ikkajo means the volume of a series. Budo Renshu doesn't name any techniques, they are all numbered. Shioda Sensei was the first student receiving permission from Osensei to go and teach, therefore, Yoshinkan contains a lot of the technique verbiage as Daito-ryu for that was the way Osensei was teaching at that time.

Here are the techniques of Daito-ryu's Ikkajo in order:

 ippon dori 一本捕 one long thing grab
 gyaku ude dori 逆腕捕 reverse arm grab (nikyo omote)
 hiji gaeshi 肘返し elbow return
 kuruma daoshi 車倒し carriage throw (sumi otoshi)
 shime kaeshi 絞め返し choke return (kokyu nage)
 daki jime 抱締め hug (a person) choke
 karami nage 手扌弱投 entangle, bind throw (juji nage)
 kote gaeshi 小手返し return wrist (reverse kote gaeshi)
 nukite dori 抜手捕 withdraw grab
 hiza shime 膝締め knee hug
 hanmi nage 半身投 half body throw
 ura otoshi 裏落 rear drop
 izori 居友 sitting backwards body drop
 kata otoshi 肩落 shoulder drop
 irimi nage 入身投 enter body throw (shiho nage)
 koshi guruma 腰車 lower back carry
 obi otoshi 帯落 belt drop
 kiri kaeshi 切返し cutoff return (a twisting backward knee trip)
 shiho nage 四方投 four direction throw
 tachieri dori 五襟捕 standing collar grab
 ryokata hineri 両肩捻 both shoulder twist
 ryohiji gaeshi 両肘返し both elbow return
 takano tsume 詰め stopper

Out of curiosity, which order is this? Is this from a particular group's syllabus or from some time in Aikido's past?

odudog 04-29-2013 07:35 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 326156)
Out of curiosity, which order is this? Is this from a particular group's syllabus or from some time in Aikido's past?

That is from the two dvds that I have from two different instructors. They both had them in that order. One I bought which Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei produced. The second was given to me from a Daito-ryu student. I think the instructor is a descendent from Takeda (no English translation on this dvd and my wife isn't going to sit with me to translate).

Cliff Judge 04-29-2013 07:48 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 326157)
That is from the two dvds that I have from two different instructors. They both had them in that order. One I bought which Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei produced. The second was given to me from a Daito-ryu student. I think the instructor is a descendent from Takeda (no English translation on this dvd and my wife isn't going to sit with me to translate).

Thanks. Stan Pranin's materials show only 20 techniques in the Nikkajo sequence. I wonder if the other Daito ryu groups teach these.

odudog 04-29-2013 07:53 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
My dvd has 21 techniques in th nikajo.

Cliff Judge 04-29-2013 08:35 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 326158)
Thanks. Stan Pranin's materials show only 20 techniques in the Nikkajo sequence. I wonder if the other Daito ryu groups teach these.

I meant 'ikkajo' :/

PeterR 04-30-2013 02:22 AM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 326154)
Shioda Sensei was the first student receiving permission from Osensei to go and teach, therefore, Yoshinkan contains a lot of the technique verbiage as Daito-ryu for that was the way Osensei was teaching at that time.

Not quite right in that there were several students out teaching before that - some of whom never adopted the Ikkyo/Ikajo ... convention.

odudog 04-30-2013 06:54 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 326162)
Not quite right in that there were several students out teaching before that - some of whom never adopted the Ikkyo/Ikajo ... convention.

Just to be clear, ikyo does not equal ikajo. Ikyo is the name of a technique while ikajo is not s technique.

Chris Li 04-30-2013 07:07 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 326179)
Just to be clear, ikyo does not equal ikajo. Ikyo is the name of a technique while ikajo is not s technique.

Except that it is a technique in certain schools such as the Yoshinkan.

Best,

Chris

patrick de block 05-01-2013 01:26 PM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
To add to the confusion. In Tomiki techniques are named for what you are doing (more or less) to Uke, except for the first five which are named according to the relative positions. And sometimes names are so well known that the most common are used. And because I like being a dick sometimes I call them by different names and sometimes invent names. So I have a technique called 'whirling leaf' which is not in the present day seventeen but was in the original structure Tomiki devised.

PeterR 05-02-2013 02:00 AM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Patrick de Block wrote: (Post 326202)
To add to the confusion. In Tomiki techniques are named for what you are doing (more or less) to Uke, except for the first five which are named according to the relative positions. And sometimes names are so well known that the most common are used. And because I like being a dick sometimes I call them by different names and sometimes invent names. So I have a technique called 'whirling leaf' which is not in the present day seventeen but was in the original structure Tomiki devised.

The name or the technique? What is the technique?

MRoh 05-02-2013 03:33 AM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 326179)
Just to be clear, ikyo does not equal ikajo. Ikyo is the name of a technique while ikajo is not s technique.

Hi,

Ikkyo, Ikkajo, Ude osae, ippon dori, oshi taoshi, all are names for the same technique in different systems.

Maybe the way how the technique is executed differs, ippon dori in Daito ryu appears not like ikkyo in modern Aikido.

ChrisMikk 05-03-2013 08:23 AM

Re: Source of the nameing conventions.
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 326180)
Except that it is a technique in certain schools such as the Yoshinkan.

Not sure: "shomen uchi ikkajo osae ichi" is a technique. Would you say "ikkajo" is a technique?


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:29 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.