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-   -   does nikyo hurt? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22601)

ChrisMikk 04-23-2013 06:02 AM

does nikyo hurt?
 
Here are two simple (I hope) questions:

I am studying Yoshinkan. We are learning nikajo like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QchlmrPnidA
We are told that nikajo should not be painful in the wrist. This is a difficult effect to produce, but as uke, I have felt times when the only thing I noticed was my hip and knee collapsing--no pain response.

In the past I have felt budoka from different martial arts trying to apply this technique--nikyo, I believe, in Aikikai. I always thought it was supposed to hurt at the wrist, and the problems people always had were in avoiding collapsing the arm.

Does Aikikai try to produce pain at the wrist?

And, in learning Aikikai's nikyo, is collapsing the arm into the body rather producing an effect on uke a problem for students?

Or, in Aikikai, what is the main hurtle for students in learning nikyo?

grondahl 04-23-2013 07:14 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Christian Mikkelson wrote: (Post 326001)
Does Aikikai try to produce pain at the wrist?

And, in learning Aikikai's nikyo, is collapsing the arm into the body rather producing an effect on uke a problem for students?

Or, in Aikikai, what is the main hurtle for students in learning nikyo?

Aikikai is an organisation that covers many different styles of aikido, but based on my own experience: No, pain is not an independant goal in nikkyo.

robin_jet_alt 04-23-2013 07:50 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
That is a difficult and complex question. I think that Nikyo does tend to hurt. It is a wrist lock after all. However, the pain should not be the goal of the technique. What you should be aiming for is a structural collapse of uke.

I have seen and learned variations that don't hurt at all, such as this one by Shishiya sensei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to7yX7s4j64

I have felt him do this technique, and it definitely works, but it is unconventional, and I definitely consider it to be a variation.

The nikyo I aim for uses the classic nikyo form, but creates the same structural collapse as Shishiya sensei's technique. It hurts, but uke doesn't drop because of the pain, but because of the structural collapse.

As for how it is practiced in Aikikai, there are so many teachers teaching so many different things that it is impossible to say. For instance, Shishiya sensei is technically in the Aikikai, but he has a very unconventional nikyo. I think some people do rely on pain compliance to make this technique work, but I think that is the wrong approach.

Walter Martindale 04-23-2013 08:23 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
wrist? Forearm? It crosses the radius and ulna and "cranks" each against the other, via "hyper-pronation" and also can apply a torque at the wrist/carpals. Pain avoidance gets more experienced aikido people to move, but pain can cause people who are unfamiliar with the movements to either comply, break, or get really peeved.

Cliff Judge 04-23-2013 08:35 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
I have really been working hard for awhile to develop a nikkyo that doesn't hurt. I have not had a huge amount of success so far.

I had a very interesting conversation with a Hakko ryu practitioner earlier this year. The gentleman showed me that it is possible to lock a joint without causing pain or causing uke to feel much at all. He locked my wrist softly and then rather than continuing to apply pressure, he locked my elbow softly. Again without continuing to apply pressure he took control of my shoulder and I had to go prone on the mat to deal with it.

I am not very good at feeling how much of a lock I have on different uke's joints at this point, so i am trying to figure that part out. I figure at the end of the day it is about drawing energy from one of my heels, letting it spiral up my body and then into uke's body and back down into them....then a bunch of stuff I haven't figured out yet...(step 3 profit).

A couple years ago Ellis Amdur introduced me to the idea that nikkyo is essentially a general shape of energy... a "gathering" movement of energy, as though you are scooping up armsfull of tall grass and bringing them into your belly. Daito ryu seems to have the same kind of thing going on, with Nikkajo being characterized by a certain kind of spiral movement. It would be neat to be able to do this without overt physical movement at all....just, when someone touches you, they sort of get sucked into these grinding gears of ki.

Well, I'll let you know if I ever figure THAT out. :)

In the meantime, my advice is, pay attention to how much pressure you are applying to the wrist. Learn how to lock the wrist without applying so much pressure that uke feels pain. When you get there, consider how to lock the elbow, also without pain. From there go to the shoulder, or skip the shoulder and go to their center, or skip their shoulder and go to their front foot.

phitruong 04-23-2013 09:23 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
it all depends on your uke reaction.

the screamer: AAAHHH OH OHH OOO AAAAAHHH ARRGGHHH
the whimper: aaahhhh oooooo eeee eekkk oooooo
the religious: oh god! oh god! that's hurt! oh dear god almighty! oh god!
the masochist: oh that hurt! please don't stop! more! more! hurt me more!
the taichi practitioner: hah! your old man playing flute technique is poorly execute! i will counter it with the single whip and follow it with double whipping for good measure!
the kyokushin karateka: ha! my wrist fused to my forearm, you can't do that to me. now eat my fused knuckle fits!
the mime: not saying much but trying to put nikyo on his own foot
the catholics: holy mary mother of god! i have sin. please punish me some more!
west coast aikidoka: pease man! like like lighten up dude!
east coast aikidoka: you call that a nikyo! who's your teacher! i am going kick his ass!
midwest aikidoka: you mind help me with the other bucket to bail this flood out?!! while at it, you mind grab the snow shovel too?
ki aikidoka: your weight is not underside! you haven't extend your ki! and your point is sticking out!
the taekwondoist: while you put on nikyo, i'd just bring up both of my feet and do some aerial manuever around your head! and then scratching my nose with my toe!
the watcher of too many Ip Man movies: i will hit you repeatedly and keep hitting while you put on nikyo! then i will bong sao and lap sao you! then i bong you some more and laugh at you! hah hah hah!

lbb 04-23-2013 09:54 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
"Nikkyo should not hurt" is different than "pain is not the goal of nikkyo".

Jonathan 04-23-2013 12:23 PM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
I try to do nikyo so that it both hurts and locks. Seems to work well for me...

graham christian 04-23-2013 01:00 PM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
I would say you should do it the way you are taught until you get very good at it and only then wonder about how others do it. That's discipline.

If you already are going to keep to that discipline before experimenting with other ways then there is no problem asking.

Ultimately I would say a really good nikkyo doesn't have pain as a part of it but that also is partly down to the uke being experienced.

Personally I can say I can do it with or without and in different ways. I would also say that the whole trick to nikkyo is maybe 10% to do with the physical mechanics and 90% to do with realizing it's a sword cut.

Peace.G.

Walter Martindale 04-23-2013 01:30 PM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Jonathan Hay wrote: (Post 326014)
I try to do nikyo so that it both hurts and locks. Seems to work well for me...

"Like"
(Flashback to K-sensei and his applications... locked, hurting.... um... locked, hurting... um.. am I not tapping enough? Ah - whew...)

SeaGrass 04-23-2013 05:23 PM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 326008)
it all depends on your uke reaction.

the screamer: AAAHHH OH OHH OOO AAAAAHHH ARRGGHHH
the whimper: aaahhhh oooooo eeee eekkk oooooo
the religious: oh god! oh god! that's hurt! oh dear god almighty! oh god!
the masochist: oh that hurt! please don't stop! more! more! hurt me more!
the taichi practitioner: hah! your old man playing flute technique is poorly execute! i will counter it with the single whip and follow it with double whipping for good measure!
the kyokushin karateka: ha! my wrist fused to my forearm, you can't do that to me. now eat my fused knuckle fits!
the mime: not saying much but trying to put nikyo on his own foot
the catholics: holy mary mother of god! i have sin. please punish me some more!
west coast aikidoka: pease man! like like lighten up dude!
east coast aikidoka: you call that a nikyo! who's your teacher! i am going kick his ass!
midwest aikidoka: you mind help me with the other bucket to bail this flood out?!! while at it, you mind grab the snow shovel too?
ki aikidoka: your weight is not underside! you haven't extend your ki! and your point is sticking out!
the taekwondoist: while you put on nikyo, i'd just bring up both of my feet and do some aerial manuever around your head! and then scratching my nose with my toe!
the watcher of too many Ip Man movies: i will hit you repeatedly and keep hitting while you put on nikyo! then i will bong sao and lap sao you! then i bong you some more and laugh at you! hah hah hah!

:D You forgot to mention MMA, Koryu, Nishio...

JW 04-23-2013 06:06 PM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Bien Nguyen wrote: (Post 326025)
Nishio...

"We used to do it that way, but we haven't for some time.. let me show you what really works!"

Quote:

Bien Nguyen wrote: (Post 326025)
MMA...

"Ouch, but you'll never achieve that in real life."

i am excited to read Cliff's description of Ellis' description. I feel similarly-- in nikkyo you subsume uke from above. That doesn't require pain, but it should be physically compelling in some way. Pain is just a "cheap" way to make it compelling.
I've had teachers openly state they are trying to have it not hurt. But I've never had teachers say pain = wrong.

Also, I think it generally should hurt if uke is fighting it-- but tori can try to diffuse the fight instead of letting uke hurt himself.

Carsten Möllering 04-24-2013 01:18 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
We explicetly try do nikyo without giving pain to the partner.

Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 326007)
... nikkyo is essentially a general shape of energy... a "gathering" movement of energy, as though you are scooping up armsfull of tall grass and bringing them into your belly.
... a certain kind of spiral movement.

This sounds familiar.

This video may give a little idea of how it works. Even if the nikyo omote shown here is done with contact at the shoulder of tori it works the same way when you do it more related to the form of ikkyo omote.

As far as I understand it by now, the "gathering" or closing in nikyo omote is done by closing kua, shoulder nests and spine.
The "spiral movement" or opening in nikyo ura is done by opening shoulder nest, spine and kua.

Whether nikyo is worked by pain or "only" by contact without using or producing pain to my experience is not a question of aikikai, yoshinkan, ... .
Our shihan is a well known teacher of aikikai hombu. no pain
The aikikai shihan in charge for germany employs pain doing nikyo and emphasize it's use a lot.

robin_jet_alt 04-24-2013 03:29 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 326029)

As far as I understand it by now, the "gathering" or closing in nikyo omote is done by closing kua, shoulder nests and spine.
The "spiral movement" or opening in nikyo ura is done by opening shoulder nest, spine and kua.

Excellent description as long as people already know what you are talking about. I'm not sure how many people know what you mean by opening and closing spine, kua etc... Then again, it's really hard to explain, and I'm not sure how I would explain it in writing either :disgust:

Cliff Judge 04-24-2013 10:17 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 326029)
We explicetly try do nikyo without giving pain to the partner.

This sounds familiar.

This video may give a little idea of how it works. Even if the nikyo omote shown here is done with contact at the shoulder of tori it works the same way when you do it more related to the form of ikkyo omote.

As far as I understand it by now, the "gathering" or closing in nikyo omote is done by closing kua, shoulder nests and spine.
The "spiral movement" or opening in nikyo ura is done by opening shoulder nest, spine and kua.

Whether nikyo is worked by pain or "only" by contact without using or producing pain to my experience is not a question of aikikai, yoshinkan, ... .
Our shihan is a well known teacher of aikikai hombu. no pain
The aikikai shihan in charge for germany employs pain doing nikyo and emphasize it's use a lot.

What an unexpectedly great explanation of "the sword that gives life"! Or perhaps in this case "the hand that gives life" - Katsujinte?? Endo Sensei doesn't practice Shinkage ryu does he?

OMG that is totally sweet.

Mathias 04-24-2013 03:23 PM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Have a look at this video, Shishiya sensei talks about doing nikyo without causing pain to your partner.

http://youtu.be/SeyYDW_XA6w

MRoh 04-25-2013 06:50 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 326029)
The aikikai shihan in charge for germany employs pain doing nikyo and emphasize it's use a lot.

Hello Carsten,

this understanding of Asai senseis nikkyo-pratice ist not correct.
What he does is not about pain. The meaning is to learn to accept incoming forces, and to absorb them in your body. To pratice the wrists makes them soft, and you have to practice until you are able to take nages energy that brings you to the ground (if you are soft enough to prone position), where you can reverse ore open the spiral and escape, or do kaeshi waza, for exemple sankyo .

As an application nikkyo can be very fast, and before you feel any pain you are shocked, but you are on the ground already.

ChrisMikk 04-25-2013 09:09 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Thanks for all the responses.

I was not looking to experiment with other styles, just interested to hear how the technique is conceived and taught in other schools.

I can't follow the more esoteric descriptions here, but good for anyone who can.

Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 326007)
Learn how to lock the wrist without applying so much pressure that uke feels pain. When you get there, consider how to lock the elbow, also without pain. From there go to the shoulder, or skip the shoulder and go to their center, or skip their shoulder and go to their front foot.

Yes, this is what we are practicing in the kenshusei course. As far as I can tell so far, avoiding wrist pain and going for connection with the hip, knee, or foot involves not trying to apply a technique at the wrist. Once you grasp uke's hand and forearm, if you keep good posture and just slowly lower your center, you can force uke down slowly without pain without moving your own hands, arms, or body much at all. This is maybe a very Yoshinkan way of looking at it, though.

After having felt both painful and non-painful versions of nikajo, I would say that while pain compliance might be an effective self-defense technique, the other is probably better aikido.

I'm not sure I buy the "pain is a secondary effect of the technique" line.

Mert Gambito 04-25-2013 12:09 PM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 326007)
I had a very interesting conversation with a Hakko ryu practitioner earlier this year. The gentleman showed me that it is possible to lock a joint without causing pain or causing uke to feel much at all. He locked my wrist softly and then rather than continuing to apply pressure, he locked my elbow softly. Again without continuing to apply pressure he took control of my shoulder and I had to go prone on the mat to deal with it.

The structural alignment used in Hakkoryu is different from that used for nikkyo / nikkajo to which I've been exposed in aikido. Hakkoryu embraces inducement of pain, but puts a premium on applying wrist locks in manners that control the whole body from the onset.

Cliff Judge 04-25-2013 02:15 PM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Mert Gambito wrote: (Post 326070)
The structural alignment used in Hakkoryu is different from that used for nikkyo / nikkajo to which I've been exposed in aikido. Hakkoryu embraces inducement of pain, but puts a premium on applying wrist locks in manners that control the whole body from the onset.

It did seem to me that they went from the outside in with their locks - wrist, elbow, shoulder - in a chain; it seemed distinct from the concept of going for the whole body, or through the whole body, which is how aiki arts work in my limited experience.

The practitioner I was working with was most likely being nice to me as he let me take the option of going to the mat and tapping before he made it hurt.

Conrad Gus 04-25-2013 02:51 PM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Nikkyo hurts.

It doesn't need to hurt to work. If you have highly conditioned wrists, it doesn't hurt, in which case nage needs to have good technique (as described by many posters in this thread).

Asai Sensei (Germany) took a lot of ukemi for O Sensei. I'm pretty sure I remember him describing that O Sensei's nikkyo hurt. A lot. He encouraged us to do lots of nikkyo ukemi to condition our wrists, really going into the painful part to stretch out and strengthen the joints (don't be a wimp and tap out before the pain comes on).

Bottom line: unless you are already doing kaeshiwaza, if an accomplished practitioner puts on a strong nikkyo at full speed . . . nikkyo hurts.

Carsten Möllering 04-26-2013 01:10 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Conrad Gustafson wrote: (Post 326084)
Nikkyo hurts.
...
It doesn't need to hurt to work.

So, if it is possible that nikyo works whithout hurting (Do I get you rigth: Is this your understanding?) what does "nikyo hurts" mean then?
If you can controll and move uke without using pain but "only" technique, then what is the part of hurting or pain: What are they for if they are not needed?

I experience that it does not depend on uke's skills wether nikyo hurts or not but on tori's way to apply nikyo. Inflicting pain to my experience is a surplus that can be used additionaly. Like in yonkyo.

Quote:

... really going into the painful part to stretch out and strengthen the joints ...
Thank you, and thank you Markus for this explanation!

So this a practice that aims to refine the body of uke? To get the "dust out of the joints" as o sensei called it?
So when students of Asai sensei told me, that "nikyo has to hurt" this was about uke's way of receiving nikyo and not about tori applying nikyo?

Quote:

... if an accomplished practitioner puts on a strong nikkyo at full speed ... . . . nikkyo hurts
I don't understand this statement:
What is a "strong" nikkyo? If "strong" implies to attack uke's joint: Sure. That will hurt.
If "strong" means to clearly control and move uke: No. That doesn't need to hurt.

My experiences with "strong nikyo at full speed" of "accomplished practioners" tell me that your last sentence seems to be true only in a certain paradigm of practice. Actually receiving a fast nikyo from Endo senseiwas one of the key moments that made me change my way of practice.

MRoh 04-26-2013 01:57 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 326091)
So this a practice that aims to refine the body of uke? To get the "dust out of the joints" as o sensei called it?
So when students of Asai sensei told me, that "nikyo has to hurt" this was about uke's way of receiving nikyo and not about tori applying nikyo?

Yes. I think it primarily is a practice for uke. If you feel pain, you just have to practice more.
One aspect is to get the dust out of the joints. Another aspect concerns the need to be able to absorb any affecting forces. Thats why we practice nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo a lot.
But I never tell people that nikyo "has to hurt". I tell them if it hurts, they have to practice more, so that they someday come to enjoy the feeling as "massage".

graham christian 04-26-2013 06:57 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
I prefer the statement 'Nikkyo shouldn't hurt'. This puts emphasis both on the doer and the done to.

In my experience students find the ones that don't hurt more powerful, inescapable and leaving them humble yet bright and happy.

Peace.G.

PeterR 04-26-2013 07:31 AM

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 
What can I say - it satisfies my inner sadist.


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