AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Spiritual (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3)
-   -   Aikido Predator Mindset (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22492)

Jareddw 03-21-2013 07:55 AM

Aikido Predator Mindset
 
In "Meditations on Violence" by Rory Miller (a very sobering book by the way, and well worth the read), he describes the most important mental feature in a survival situation is having a Predator Mindset. The Predator Mindset is an all-out aggressive do what I need to survive mindset. Sort of turn the mental tables on an attacker, make them defensive. I agree with this in principle, but how does this fit into aikido? Can you have "aggressive aikido" and still call it aikido? Does it become aikijutsu then?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. I've been wrestling with this for a couple days now, and would like to have other aikidouka (or aikidoist if you've read the other thread) weigh in.

Demetrio Cereijo 03-21-2013 08:18 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

Jaredd Wilson wrote: (Post 324880)
Can you have "aggressive aikido" and still call it aikido?

Call it "proactive aikido". Problem solved.

Cliff Judge 03-21-2013 08:20 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
You can kiai in aikido, yes. You don't even have to do it with your voice. :D

Jareddw 03-21-2013 08:33 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Thank you for the responses,

In our dojo we also have days where we show how atemi interacts with aikido (nage is doing the atemi).

But I guess I'm asking "if I WANT to hurt the attacker and not protect them with a throw" is that considered aikido? I know I have a universal right to protect myself, but should there be a desire to punish someone for attacking me? I know I'll do whatever I have to, to protect me and mine, most of which will look nothing like aikido.

Just food for thought (why are food and pennies exchange rates for thought?)

Demetrio Cereijo 03-21-2013 08:40 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

Jaredd Wilson wrote: (Post 324883)
I know I have a universal right to protect myself, but should there be a desire to punish someone for attacking me?

Punishment is in the hands of the state. You have the right to defend yourself, loved ones, property, etc... but you do not have the rigth to punish the attacker.

lbb 03-21-2013 09:35 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Although the term has been widely misappropriated, a predator kills for food. That's what a predator is.

bkedelen 03-21-2013 09:50 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
It is my opinion that OP may have somewhat misinterpreted Miller's conclusion, and I submit that an Aikido based survival strategy would operate in a fundamentally different way, and on a much larger scale, than the one briefly described.

Rory Miller, Marc "Animal" MacYoung and Lt. Col. Dave Grossman have each written volumes about the toxicity of violence and prioritizing avoidance, suppression, and escape over damage to the opponent and winning a confrontation. It is my understanding that the "predator mindset" is a trait necessary to for managing only a very narrow set of scenarios that is somewhat at the extremity of the situations one potentially faces.

An Aikido approach to strategy, in my opinion, may not be as applicable as we want in that space. From a big picture survival perspective, if you are in a position to need a "predator mindset" you have already fucked up big-time. That does NOT mean you shouldn't train those instincts and those situations. If you are going to take responsibility for your own safety, you may need some or even extensive training in that area. The point is that you should also be taking a variety of other actions to make that training an approach of last resort instead of an approach of first resort. Note that Fire, LEO and Military personnel don't have this luxury, and that is why their sacrifice earns my utmost respect.

This approach dovetails with the strengths that I (and I suspect most experienced Aikidoka) have developed through Aikido training. If you are knocked down you can get up instantly with your ukemi, if you are grabbed you can break the grab or simply walk away from it, dragging the other guy behind you, using your body skills, of you are attacked, you can step right through the heart of the attack and come out the other side running. Through Aikido training you develop a body that has below average offensive capability, but cannot be stopped by ordinary grabbing and hitting.

This approach also works very well with modern defensive tactics. If you are attacked outside your home, your best chance for survival is to proceed to your vehicle and use it to escape. If you are attacked inside your home your best chance for survival is to proceed to a safe room and barricade yourself there until help arrives. Your survival in either of these situations is jeopardized by going apeshit on an an attacker. It can safely be said that you should not even participate in the altercation at all.

Even though it might sting a little, the distinction between survival and winning is an important one for people who are trying to live a life without violence. Real defensive tactics is learning how to lose gracefully, how to acquire assistance from others, and how to architect a life where exposure to violence is minimized in every way possible.

bkedelen 03-21-2013 10:14 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Ugh. Why is this thread in a/spiritual?

phitruong 03-21-2013 10:46 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Agent 47: So, Inspector, how does a good man decide when to kill?

Inspector Whittier: If I think a man means to do me or my family harm I will do whatever I can to stop them. But beyond that... It's a crap-shoot.

hughrbeyer 03-21-2013 10:53 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
I'm with Mary. Calling the attitude these people are referencing a "predator mindset" is a category error.

aiki-jujutsuka 03-21-2013 11:38 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
as an aiki-jujutsu practitioner I just wanted to add my two pennies worth. Modern Aiki-jujutsu (such as Hakko Ryu & Dentokan) has a humanitarian goal akin to that of Aikido in its philosophy on violence and self-protection. Though atemi is emphasised more, atemi is always employed more as a distraction, such as a mitsubushi rather than as a knock out blow. The Jujutsu technique is paramount, to incapacitate your attacker through immediate pain compliance rather than cause permanent injury. Hakko Ryu's philosophy is no challenge, no resistance, no injury. The art is designed to equip practitioners with the skillset to defend themselves safely and maintain control of their emotions.

graham christian 03-21-2013 01:20 PM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Removing the smoke you're asking is Aikido the art of hunting and killing, or even developing mindset of hunter/killer.

I think there's not much to ponder on there.

Peace,G,

Rob Watson 03-21-2013 02:12 PM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

Jaredd Wilson wrote: (Post 324883)
But I guess I'm asking "if I WANT to hurt the attacker and not protect them with a throw" is that considered aikido?

No. At some point it may well come to pass that in order to meet the high standard of loving protection for all things one may HAVE to hurt but WANT is a different ball of wax.
Quote:

Jaredd Wilson wrote: (Post 324883)
I know I have a universal right to protect myself, but should there be a desire to punish someone for attacking me?

Desire results in suffering and that is best avoided. A desire to punish is pretty low level of personal development so please redouble your efforts to clear these problems.
Quote:

Jaredd Wilson wrote: (Post 324883)
I know I'll do whatever I have to, to protect me and mine, most of which will look nothing like aikido.

If you are so well and able to predict the future then there is no need for aikido. Please put your gift to a more positive purpose.

aiki-jujutsuka 03-21-2013 02:43 PM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
interesting article on aikidojournal.com that seems to address many of the same issues in this thread.

http://members.aikidojournal.com/pub...nst-ones-self/

My favourite paragraph:

"One of the first things we learned in Aikido is to relax the body and calm the mind. To get the most out of training, we do not deny the uke is attacking and we do not tell them how they should attack. The Aiki way is to greet the attack, accept it, and blend with it. We redirect rather than resist. We take balance with finesse rather than by force. We attempt to control the situation and do no harm."

Krystal Locke 03-21-2013 02:49 PM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 324889)
Ugh. Why is this thread in a/spiritual?

Why not?

graham christian 03-21-2013 03:15 PM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote: (Post 324906)
Why not?

Mind is not spirit. That's basically why not. Mindset is mind therefor mental.

Peace.G.

SeiserL 03-21-2013 03:26 PM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 324905)
interesting article on aikidojournal.com that seems to address many of the same issues in this thread.

http://members.aikidojournal.com/pub...nst-ones-self/

My favourite paragraph:

"One of the first things we learned in Aikido is to relax the body and calm the mind. To get the most out of training, we do not deny the uke is attacking and we do not tell them how they should attack. The Aiki way is to greet the attack, accept it, and blend with it. We redirect rather than resist. We take balance with finesse rather than by force. We attempt to control the situation and do no harm."

There is a time to protect ourselves from ourselves.
There is a time to protect others from ourselves.
There is a time to protect ourselves from others.
There is a time to protect others from others.

There is a time to go on the growl and prowl.

Serenity/wisdom is knowing the difference.

Aikibu 03-21-2013 07:48 PM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
You know...Just because some dude writes a book does not mean...

A. He's right
B. He's an authority on "he's right"
C. That his premise has anything to do with Budo much less Aikido.

Martial Awareness is not a "Predator Mindset" and if you think it is then you're liable to set your practice back many years trying to correct this 'philosophy".

Now I will say learning to relax under duress, and respond appropriately to any attack (as Lynn hints at within or outside of your "self") to restore (in Aikido's case) "Harmony" is my understanding of Martial Awareness. All the "Predator Mindset" ever did for me was cause more pain and despair.

Been There Done That.

William Hazen

Janet Rosen 03-22-2013 12:09 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 324915)
You know...Just because some dude writes a book does not mean...

A. He's right
B. He's an authority on "he's right"
C. That his premise has anything to do with Budo much less Aikido.

Martial Awareness is not a "Predator Mindset" and if you think it is then you're liable to set your practice back many years trying to correct this 'philosophy".

What he said.

SeiserL 03-22-2013 04:58 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 324915)
All the "Predator Mindset" ever did for me was cause more pain and despair. Been There Done That.

Ditto.

Yet, there is a time and place (that most people will never thankfully know) where becoming and being a predator is the most loving and protective thing we can do. But then you have to live with it.

Krystal Locke 03-22-2013 05:29 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 324909)
Mind is not spirit. That's basically why not. Mindset is mind therefor mental.

Peace.G.

Back to defining spirit (mind, for that matter) and showing it exists as something distinct from body.....

Basia Halliop 03-22-2013 06:58 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
'Predator mindset' = track down, stalk, pounce, and kill... That's basically an assassin, which is stretching the concept of 'self defense' to an Orwellian degree.

An analogy I've heard that I like better is a cornered cat. Like the intro on this website (www.corneredcat.com - I'm not actually into guns, but if was, seems like a decent website).

"The most dangerous place I ever stood was between a cornered cat and an open door. When a cat feels threatened, she gets away from the danger as quickly as she can. She doesn’t care what damage she inflicts on her way to safety, but she’s not interested in fighting for fighting’s sake. She does only as much as she needs to do in order to escape. She doesn’t deal in revenge. If she feels threatened, she simply leaves. Efficiently."

The cat in this scenario couldn't care less who 'wins', but it will climb/slash/twist/claw/leap over you or through you, whatever it needs to get to the door.

graham christian 03-22-2013 06:59 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote: (Post 324924)
Back to defining spirit (mind, for that matter) and showing it exists as something distinct from body.....

That's too easy. Those who hold the idea of it's all the same and their just interchangeable words and it's yet to be proved etc. don't want to know.

So it's no wonder to me that so many 'think' they can understand Ueshiba for example and yet still say the above.

Not just in Aikido but in life too, it's always a source of amusement to me. You got araes of life which are the domain of spirit or spiritual well being called Religion yet generally full of experts who don't even want to know the difference. You got areas to do with mind yet full of people and experts who can't even define one or have ever seen one. A crazy old world;)

Peace.G.

graham christian 03-22-2013 07:10 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
I don't see any time or place where being predator is the most loving thing to do Lynn.

Separately though I suppose it's best to throw away the predator mindset notion and get back to reality of Aikido and just stick with there is only one basic mindset which everyone debates as to what it is and that is the budo mindset.

Mmmmmmm.....there again after seeing all the multitudes of what even that means I think I'll stick to just learn bit by bit the five minds of budo and how they apply in Aikido. All else to do with mindsets is pretty irrelevant to me.

Peace.G.

phitruong 03-22-2013 08:17 AM

Re: Aikido Predator Mindset
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 324915)
Now I will say learning to relax under duress, and respond appropriately to any attack (as Lynn hints at within or outside of your "self") to restore (in Aikido's case) "Harmony" is my understanding of Martial Awareness. All the "Predator Mindset" ever did for me was cause more pain and despair.

i liked this. and not just aikido, but any martial arts. the key words here are "respond appropriately".


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:43 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.