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SparkErosion 03-08-2013 06:26 PM

Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
As I feel its important to know some atemi in Aikido, as far as vital points on the body, I only know of one, which is a forward and down palm strike to the head to disorientate the attacker.

However, I took tae kwon do as a teenager and I almost got to junior black belt, I am still very good at kicking. I took Karate younger than that, I can throw a basis punch but nothing major.

My tae Kwon do however is considerably better.

Since I can kick very well, I was wondering if this can also be atemi used in Aikido. Are kicks only used to distance the attacker? I mostly see in my class punches that lead into techniques in my class. Can kicks also be used without distracting the flow of the technique? If someone is punching me left and right very fast, how am I going to be able to do a munetski fast enough to do a kotegaeshi technique? Wouldn't it better to do an atemi first?

My question is, can Tae Kwon do compliment AIkido? Thanks

Janet Rosen 03-08-2013 07:13 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
If you focus too much on integrating kicking and striking, you aren't going to be doing aikido. For now, I'd say, just keep training - you are learning techniques that are building blocks, like learning phonemes and words in order to be able to make sentences and paragraphs - but the real goal is never to "be able to do kotegaishe" in a given situation; it is to have the correct technique for a given situation become apparent.
And in terms of how to deal with kicks and strikes - fun experimenting with dojomates on the mat after class!

Hellis 03-09-2013 02:42 AM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
The Aikido taught in the 1950s/60s by Kenshiro Abbe and Tadashi Abe included Karate style kicking and punching in every warm up session, which we continue to do. I had taught my son the old way.
My son Rik Ellis MMA fought a 6th dan in Taekwondo, I advised Rik to enter and take his opponent down before he could use his kicks for which he had a reputation of being very effective - Rik entered and the fight lasted just 27 seconds.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
Rik Ellis vs Taekwondo http://www.youtube.com/embed/2h-Whhq...eature=player_

Hellis 03-09-2013 03:05 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Sorry for adding the wrong link above :-{ This one should be the one.

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
Rik Ellis vs Taekwondo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-juUCqxeFA

hughrbeyer 03-09-2013 06:57 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
You had me worried there for a minute.

ryback 03-11-2013 05:29 AM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Quote:

Kevin Tejan wrote: (Post 324452)
As I feel its important to know some atemi in Aikido, as far as vital points on the body, I only know of one, which is a forward and down palm strike to the head to disorientate the attacker.

However, I took tae kwon do as a teenager and I almost got to junior black belt, I am still very good at kicking. I took Karate younger than that, I can throw a basis punch but nothing major.

My tae Kwon do however is considerably better.

Since I can kick very well, I was wondering if this can also be atemi used in Aikido. Are kicks only used to distance the attacker? I mostly see in my class punches that lead into techniques in my class. Can kicks also be used without distracting the flow of the technique? If someone is punching me left and right very fast, how am I going to be able to do a munetski fast enough to do a kotegaeshi technique? Wouldn't it better to do an atemi first?

My question is, can Tae Kwon do compliment AIkido? Thanks

Well, in my opinion, it is not a matter of making pre-set combat scenarios like "if he does that,how can i apply this"
In Japanese martial arts there is a concept called Mushin and it actually means "no-mind". No mind or empty mind is not of course as in being stupid but in being empty of pre arranged thought about any scenario or any technique that you might use so that, at the moment of danger, your training will automaticaly kick in and you will be in control without realizing it.
This leads to another Aikido concept of Take mushu aiki, the essence of which is to be able, without any concious thinking or analysing, to apply the right technique for that speciffic situation with no hesitation.
But as it must be obvious, that needs lots of studying and training so you should concentrate on your hours in the Dojo trying to slowly progress from lesson to lesson.
I wouldn't recomend any kind of kicking during a real confrontation because they are very compromising for one's ballance. Keeping both feet on the ground and our tanden grounded too is the most important factor in terms of ballance in a fight.
We should never confuse a martial art with a fighting sport. Some of the fighting sports have their roots in martial arts but they are not true budo. In any case no system can compliment another system because no matter how effective both can be, they have different basic principles, so trying to mix them you usually get the one in the way of the other with no result.
Aikido has atemi waza among other things, but that doesn't mean that they come from other martial arts. Study Aikido hard, learn the weapon techniques as well as the tai-jutsu techniques and pretty soon you'll realize that they are one and the same, Aikido is a complete martial art.
Pins, throws, projections, hitting and avoiding to be hit can all be learnt if you study the Art deeply...

lbb 03-11-2013 09:26 AM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Quote:

Kevin Tejan wrote: (Post 324452)
My question is, can Tae Kwon do compliment AIkido? Thanks

Incorporating knowledge of other styles into aikido training is a pretty common question. In practice, I don't think it works out in most cases. A necessary condition would seem to be a solid understanding and competence in at least the basics of the style in question, and then there's the question of the style itself. It may be that your junior black belt program was something exceptional, but most youth martial arts "training" is just another kid activity, and I'm afraid TKD is notorious for decorating kids with grandiose and overinflated ranks and not instilling any actual martial skill. If your school was one of the few where you spent considerable time working out on the heavy bag, and sparring with hard contact, you may have learned how to land a solid punch or kick. If, on the other hand, your school emphasized WTF-style "sparring" (read: lots of tap-tap high kicks and essentially no punches, because punches to the head are illegal and punches to the body never get points no matter how well they're done) and poomse, I don't think that's what I'd want to base my atemi on.

But even (especially?) if you can punch like Ali and kick like a mule, it's iffy to go off script in partner practice, unless both you and your partner are skilled enough to train like that. I'm reminded of seeing a newbie in his very first jo class, take a swing at his partner with a speed, strength and enthusiasm that was inversely proportional to his level of skill and control (oh, such a bad combination). His partner was considerably more skilled, able to not only protect herself from the wild strike, but to continue to the next part of the kata without using more speed or force than the newbie could handle, and so no harm done -- but Sensei saw this, stopped them, and said to the newbie, "Don't dish it out until you can take it." As someone once pointed out in these forums, the speed and strength and intensity of your attack tends to bounce right back at you -- that's the nature of aikido. Unless your partner is pretty skilled, the danger of punching like Ali and kicking like a mule is, first, that you'll hurt your partner; second, that your partner will hurt you. Same goes anytime you go off the script. Until you and your partner both have the skill to color outside the lines, better stay within them.

As for kicks specifically, I asked my sensei about that, and was told it's for two reasons: first, not many people are competent at kicking (including most who think they are), and second, the ukemi is difficult and it's easy to get hurt. Looking at the big wide world out there, kicking seems like a low percentage attack to defend against, and if we did train against kicks, I think it would make most sense to deal with kicks at knee level or below, since that's the highest most fighting dufuses seem capable of.

Belt_Up 03-11-2013 10:59 AM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
http://aikieast.blogspot.co.uk/2009/...in-aikido.html - Ledyard Sensei's article on atemi is a good one.

Quote:

Well, in my opinion, it is not a matter of making pre-set combat scenarios like "if he does that,how can i apply this"
In Japanese martial arts there is a concept called Mushin and it actually means "no-mind". No mind or empty mind is not of course as in being stupid but in being empty of pre arranged thought about any scenario or any technique that you might use so that, at the moment of danger, your training will automaticaly kick in and you will be in control without realizing it.
This leads to another Aikido concept of Take mushu aiki, the essence of which is to be able, without any concious thinking or analysing, to apply the right technique for that speciffic situation with no hesitation...I wouldn't recomend any kind of kicking during a real confrontation because they are very compromising for one's ballance. Keeping both feet on the ground and our tanden grounded too is the most important factor in terms of ballance in a fight.
That's a little contradictory. You shouldn't rule out doing anything, yet no kicking? I know there isn't a lot of room for the type of high kicks one associates with TKD in a real confrontation, but there will be times when they and other kicks are applicable. Not as often as other things, perhaps, but still.

Quote:

In any case no system can compliment another system because no matter how effective both can be, they have different basic principles, so trying to mix them you usually get the one in the way of the other with no result.
I'm going to quote from Steven J. Pearlman's The Book of Martial Power here, so apologies if anyone gets bored.

Quote:

...principles are universal to all martial arts. For us to consider it a principle, it must apply equally to all styles, irrespective of national origin and whether they are hard, soft, internal, external, long ranged, short ranged, striking based, grappling based etc...A "principle" that exists in one style but not another, or in some styles but not all, cannot be a true principle...It still might be a valuable technique or method....consider Newton's Third Law of Motion: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." That truth applies to all martial arts, regardless of their nationality, combative objective, range(s) of combat, or the nature of their techniques.
I know what you mean, in that different martial arts have different methodologies, and they may or may not complement one another.

Personally, I've a newfound appreciation for the use of the elbow and the knee, regarding atemi.

SparkErosion 03-11-2013 12:46 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Yes, I was very lucky. It wasn't a McDojo. We ranked every 3 months or so, or perhaps a little longer, and it was when we were ready to rank, he would tell us.

Our master in Tae Kwon do was extremely skilled, so was his son. We would do full contact sparring with kicks, but avoid the head . I would go full force, kicking them back with force as hard as I could, sometimes knocking them over. The instructor told me to "Go easy" sometimes on the younger kids.

I went in sparring competitions but wasn't aggressive enough and lost , despite my ability. I've always been a bit timid, being afraid I'll hurt the other person. I never did actually want to hurt anyone else, unless sparring in full padded gear, even though, sometimes I'd get timid. Thats why I like aikido.

I won a gold medal (top awarded) in the Kata contest for teenagers at a tournament.
I would often spar and try and kick with his younger son, an extremely skilled guy. About 20, maybe 30s.
He could do a triple jump kick, when i could only do a double jump kick.
I was always amazed how he could land 3 in the air before getting back on his feat.

In sparring, he would bounce around, I would attempt to kick him, but he'd always dodge. He wore no gear, just his gi. I couldn't touch him. I was fast too!

Our instructor knew how to use daggers apparantly very well. One time, he held a demonstration. He had an apple on someones head who held very still. He was about 30 feet away and had a dagger in his hand. He threw the dagger at the apple on the other guys head, speared it dead in the center, without the apple falling off. I couldn't believe it. It was the most amazing thing I ever saw. If he was even a LITTLE off, it would've speared him in the face. I am still amazed.

Yeah, we'd do the bag and practice kicks every time. I got pretty good at powerful kicks. That's why I was thinking of incorporating it. I also have much stronger legs now due to being older, (in mid 20s) weight lifting and cycling quite alot.

I know basic punches, a few weak spots in the body, (hammer fist to the head, palm strikes down on the head), basic punchs, just that we practice. But I'm best at kicking. My mom told he was a bodyguard for secret service agents, no kidding. It was definitely not a McDojo. I was very lucky..

SparkErosion 03-11-2013 12:51 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Also I agree (and this is also what i"ve learned in aikido) that kicks definitely can disrupt your balance and can compromise your center and come back at you, throwing you off balance if not done properly. I didn't mean in the dojo either by the way. I mean't in a real fight. I've already been attacked once by my former room mate. I didn't use kicks on him, since I didn't want to hurt him. I actually don't want to hurt anyone, (like you said about Budo) but I might use it in a life or death situation, as a last resort.

Keith Larman 03-11-2013 12:53 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Quote:

Kevin Tejan wrote: (Post 324557)
One time, he held a demonstration. He had an apple on someones head who held very still. He was about 30 feet away and had a dagger in his hand. He threw the dagger at the apple on the other guys head, speared it dead in the center, without the apple falling off. I couldn't believe it. It was the most amazing thing I ever saw. If he was even a LITTLE off, it would've speared him in the face. I am still amazed.

You should be horrified. That is stupid, irresponsible and borderline criminal.

lbb 03-11-2013 12:57 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Hi Kevin,

As I said, I don't think it matters if you're all that and a bag of chips in another style (and your skills are current), or you aren't. The reasons for leaving it outside are different in the two cases, but the result is the same.

SparkErosion 03-11-2013 01:08 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 324560)
Hi Kevin,

As I said, I don't think it matters if you're all that and a bag of chips in another style (and your skills are current), or you aren't. The reasons for leaving it outside are different in the two cases, but the result is the same.

Completley understand. I'd rather do Aikido any way. I have no wish to harm anyone, was curious if it was application to use in case I couldn't use aikido. I am only 6th kyu (first belt test). So I probably don't have enough aikido experience to defend myself if I had to as a last resort.

JP3 04-06-2013 09:36 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
On the original post, I've got about 25 years of TKD behind me, and depending on mail ai and contact with, or lack therof, with the opponent, TKD is as valid an aiki response as judo, one is simply at a different distance than the other.

Lyle Laizure 04-07-2013 12:58 AM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 324453)
If you focus too much on integrating kicking and striking, you aren't going to be doing aikido.

Not true.

Janet Rosen 04-07-2013 04:18 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote: (Post 325514)
Not true.

This was in response to one line in a longer post I believe taken out of context. I wrote TO A BEGINNER:
"If you focus too much on integrating kicking and striking, you aren't going to be doing aikido. For now, I'd say, just keep training - you are learning techniques that are building blocks, like learning phonemes and words in order to be able to make sentences and paragraphs - but the real goal is never to "be able to do kotegaishe" in a given situation; it is to have the correct technique for a given situation become apparent.
And in terms of how to deal with kicks and strikes - fun experimenting with dojomates on the mat after class!"
I'm not addressing dojos that do integrate those things within the context of aikido - I wasn't and don't criticize that. That wasn't his question. I stand by my original advice as part of the larger context - he should for now empty his cup and focus on learning what is being taught in class in his dojo if he wants to learn aikido.

JP3 04-07-2013 04:52 PM

Re: Atemi, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido
 
I believe Janet is correct. Trying to train multiple arts at one time ends up hindering the learning of all of them. While learning aikido, just do aikido. Get the reps in, and once those reps (I'm speaking of the 10K reps) have burned the muscle memory pathways into the subconscious, then adding the next set hurts nothing.

On this issue, the reason things work ... well this is my opinion and some others who have done it this way, opinions may vary ... is that the kick-punch arts have a faster learning curve than the grappling arts (of which aikido is one as it generally requires 2 partners to truly practice aikido). For the kick-punch, if the standard assumption is that it takes 10,000 reps of a physical task to master the task and make it automatic, unconscious, and the same each time without thinking about it... think how much faster it is to do 10,000 reverse punches than, say, 10,00 reps of iriminage?

Stay the course, work the aikido. Once you are actually doing things and have to stop and go, "Wait... what just happened?" Then you can do a little split timing.


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