AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   General (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22403)

SparkErosion 03-01-2013 11:57 PM

Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
I just passed my rokkyu test (first belt test from beginner white belt), or yellow belt, after 9 months of consistent training.

One thing my instructor my technique was best at (out of the 13 techniques) was the munetsuki and menetsuki kotegaeshi. Before the test we did a type of wing chung type movement where the hand hits the on coming punch, kind of like a swipe, and move sit off the center line, thus missing the person being hit.

I think this is a good idea, but this coupled with the cutting the arm down, while a great idea, I had trouble performing that part. I did very good with the regular tenkan munetsuki . However, to do this in real life (I study seidokan, its a bit more realistic type style training, so to speak. We try to make real life applications. So I try to make sense of it too...which is why I'm posting this) without moving the punch off my center line, correct me if I'm wrong, but as SOON AS they start to punch, I would have to be already beside them to tenkan and go into kotaegashi, due to the quick timing of the punch. In a real life scenerio, at my training, that's probably not practical, I hope it is, but I'm not sure I could.

Of course, the best thing to do is to run away. I was attacked, however, a couple months back very badly by my room mate. I got a hook punch to the side of the head, avoided the other attack, had to sweep him (without injuring him), and put him in a type of lung puncture knee pin. (without too much pressure, it was a dangerous pin). I knew some Aikido, I was well into 7 months of training, but my adrenaline was going, I had just come out of my room like every other day, while he charges out of his room suddenly as I get out of mine yelling "I'm going to KILL YOU!", then starts punching me wildly to the front and side.I didn't have time to think about Aikido. That's what I'm worried about. In a real life situation, right now, would I even be able to use any of my aikido to save my life? I'd hope so! If I have no other choice. And I really don't think that is the case.

At any rate, he hit me pretty hard on my right temple, I avoided his other hook punch , I sweeped him carefully so he wouldn't hit his head on the ground, and put my knee with my weight on his lung. I didn't even think of doing an Aikido pin. This put him out of breath pretty fast, and he gave him in about 15 seconds.

That's the thing, I could've probably just thrown him. But he was my room mate, I Probably would've gone to jail, and he's normally a great guy, very nice. He has some mental health issues, and was not thinking clearly that day. In the year I had lived there, he had not once even got into ONE argument with me. It was strange indeed.

So I guess my question is, assuming a real punch to the solar plex or face, and say I can't react fast enough to tenkan around, what if someone was holding a knife out, or perhaps a gun towards me ?

Knife I could probably just grab and go straight into kotaegaeshi and turn. The gun, if someone was really trying to shoot me, I was the only one in the room, and it was a life or death situation and I couldn't run away (this is obviously a worse case scenario, but I think it's good to at least think about these things, even in the extremely unlikely event) wouldn't in that case it make perfect sense to tenkan around him (avoiding the linear path of the bullet) and throw him, take the gun, and run fu?

My whole point is, and sorry I got off track, is this: What applicatinons can I use with munetski and menentski kotaegaeshi besides punches? Are there other aplications, with weapons, or anything else?

Michael Douglas 03-02-2013 02:57 AM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Kevin Tejan wrote: (Post 324099)
... I got a hook punch to the side of the head, ...
... he charges out of his room suddenly as I get out of mine yelling "I'm going to KILL YOU!", then starts punching me wildly...

At any rate, he hit me pretty hard on my right temple, ...

... He has some mental health issues, and was not thinking clearly that day. ...

Well ... you let him hit you in the head, and you didn't die.
Next time don't let him hit you in the head.
If your training doesn't improve your chances of not getting hit in the head ... add better training.

What was the question?

Hellis 03-02-2013 04:40 AM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
The most important technique you need to learn if you have a loon as a room mate - make sure he goes to sleep before you.

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
Aikido Controversy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMuDqKOjnls

SparkErosion 03-02-2013 07:16 AM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
My question was: What other applications of menetski and munetski kotaegasehi are there? I went on a rant about other stuff, but that's the question.

For example, we practice alot of Jo and bokken work. With techniques like shinonage, we learn how it came from a sword cut across the belly and then down in a shomen cut. We learn jo work and apply that to each technique. We learn tanto work and apply the same techniques (as stated above) as you'd do with hand. In fact, I think aikido came from jujitsu which came from sword techniques that some were adapated to hand and body movements.

Also I think that jujitsu was used as a last resort when the attacker in feudal japan ran out of other weapons as a last resort, I could be wrong. I really like the history of martiarl arts. So that's my question, how else can it be used, without punches!

Janet Rosen 03-02-2013 11:58 AM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Think of tsuki not as a punch but as a thrust as from spear or sword.

Dan Richards 03-02-2013 02:07 PM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 324117)
Think of tsuki not as a punch but as a thrust as from spear or sword.

What Janet said. Tsuki is movement through the front-to-back plane of the body.

I'd highly suggest at this point not to focus on knives and guns. Focus on your own body, and its relationship to uke in terms of space, position, rhythm, breathe - and learn and experience new ways of moving.

If you want to get off the line (or redirect the line), unbalance uke, apply an atemi... All of that is contained in a single, properly executed irimi movement. It's all the same thing. One movement. Case closed.

If you can't do that first, then all the other subsequent movements are not only irrelevant, they're not aligned and integrated with an effective initial entering movement. In other words - even in "puppy play" language - you're dead.

Adam Huss 03-02-2013 02:38 PM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Wait, what is 'menetski.' Is that what you call a punch to the face?

Janet Rosen 03-02-2013 04:26 PM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 324124)
Wait, what is 'menetski.' Is that what you call a punch to the face?

Munetsuki = thrust to abdomen area

phitruong 03-02-2013 08:04 PM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
hand shake is a sort of munetsuki. so is head ramping into gut. you know that half of your body is safe, you only need to move the other half, right?

Adam Huss 03-03-2013 02:33 AM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 324130)
Munetsuki = thrust to abdomen area

I was looking for 'menetsuki,' a term Kevin used in his post that is unfamiliar to me. Perhaps it is a typo, but it seemed purposeful, plus men, 面, means face or something like that.

Tsuki would be make sense in either context, I've just never heard a punch variation called men + tsuki, vice "mune," 'jodan,' 'gedan,' etc.

SparkErosion 03-08-2013 04:07 PM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Thanks everyone. I have to remember to keep proper distance, not too close or too far, properly energy between myself and the nage, moving off the line as we often almost always do, and proper timing, which seems one of the most crucial. Good form as well, dropping the center to effect theirs.

When we do our munetski or menetski kotagaeshi (Me is to the eyes, or face)
(Mu is to the ribs.)

As the punch comes in, we feel the nage's center , tenkan and drop the center, while at the same time keeping the kotaegashi joint lock to your body attached to you, WHILE you are moving.

We do this as a throw or a pin. After I got nage off balance with the tenkan, if I did not drop my center and continue moving, attaching his arm to my center and dropping my weight while moving, then he could easily stand back up and punch me in the face.

In our dojo we practice atemi at every chance. In this application our instructor does a type of wing chun/aikido movement. Most of the techniques are variations of other, more traditional techniques.

He has 4 years experience in Wing Chun Kung Fu as well.

As far as I can understand, in the Wing Chun Aikido type tsuki, the fist that comes is kind of hit with the hand, moving it slightly off the uke's center, slightly missing the uke's body (but missing nonetheless). Then uke steps in, atemi to the face as a tenkan to unbalance and goes into kotaegashi throw or pin.

I think this is good because even if uke does not have the time to redirect the attack, the punch is missed and the uke can then step in and punch, then finish the circular movement.

SparkErosion 03-08-2013 04:19 PM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 324124)
Wait, what is 'menetski.' Is that what you call a punch to the face?

"Me" in japanese literally means eyes. So a punch to the eyes or face.

"Mu" can mean ribs. So we punch specifically in the rib area of the stomach in our atemi. And in the eyes/face for the other. I'm wondering if those are anatomical weak spots...I don't know. We don't do much vital point striking. Only one I really know (and I feel it may be good to know a couple) is the hammerfist to the head or a forward and down palm strike to the head, to disrupt their coordination, and then follow with a technique Our teacher does not want us to actually harm the person with this atemi, but rather either use atemi to distract, actually hit (if neccessary) or in this case cause much less coordination as the nervous system is not working as well as it should.

In my year of doing aikido there, that is the only true atemi (kyuushuu?) i've seen.

We practice punches. Boxing, round house kicks occasional, knife defenses, kick defenses, kick pins. Front snap kicks, side kicks. It's pretty well rounded. A good nage will put his fist out if the uke isn't doing the technique correctly to warn him he would be hit in that situation. When I was attacked by my room mate, it happened very fast and suddenly. I was thinking I did NOT want to hurt him. he's my room mate, a very nice fellow. I didn't even know why he was attacking me, but I knew he's attacked other room mates and they both got very hurt. I refused to let this happen to me.

He came out, did a round house punch to my right temlpe, it hit me, but then he did another to my left temple, I was able to tenkan around it. His forward punches were so fast and with each hand, and contracted so fast, I could not enter in time to even pull off a munetski kotegashi. I didn't want to either, I knew even the pin on the concrete floor could hurt him alot. I didn't want this. I also know Tae Kwon Do and could've kicked him very hard, but I didn't use that. I wasn't really thinking of using Aikido, I was a white belt at the time, and even know I probably couldn't (although I might be able to, I've only been doing it about a year, 9 months continually about) to save my life, I then swept him (I made sure to control his fall and put my hand beneath his head so it didn't give him a bad hit to the ground on his hie ad), got him on the ground, held his hands crossed together, stood up and pushed my knee into his lung area and applied force to get him out of breath to give up. When he was on the ground, this took about 15 seconds of continuous pressure of my knee into his lung area. It was a dangerous technique I happened to learn during a pin, not aikido, more of a lung puncture type thing. But it possibly saved me from getting very hurt. I was very scared, told him if he hit me again I would not allow it. I told him to go back to his room, he complied and then I was told to call police. we didn't want him evicted so I didn't, as he'd lived there 10 years. So he got an eviction warning notice, and was told to go to therapy, and that was it. It never happened again. Shortly after I moved out.

akiy 03-08-2013 04:51 PM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Kevin Tejan wrote: (Post 324446)
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 324124)
Wait, what is 'menetski.' Is that what you call a punch to the face?

"Me" in japanese literally means eyes. So a punch to the eyes or face.

The term is actually "mentsuki" 面突き -- in this case, a punch to the face -- and does not refer to the eyes.

Quote:

"Mu" can mean ribs.
The term is actually "mune" 胸 which basically refers to the chest area. It doesn't refer to "ribs," per se (that would be "abara" 肋).

-- Jun

SparkErosion 03-08-2013 04:56 PM

Re: Applications of munetski and menetski kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote: (Post 324449)
The term is actually "mentsuki" 面突き -- in this case, a punch to the face -- and does not refer to the eyes.

The term is actually "mune" 胸 which basically refers to the chest area. It doesn't refer to "ribs," per se (that would be "abara" 肋).

-- Jun

Thanks for that Jun.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:18 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.