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graham christian 02-28-2013 05:18 PM

The Empty Body
 
Thought I'd write this to show the difference between the spiritual discipline in Aikido used by some as different to the IP methods used by some.

It's easily summed up by saying the view of body is that it's empty. So not only empty mind but empty body too.

So no muscles or sinews or anything of the sort is even given any attention to whatsoever. The only thing you deal with is energy ways and energy motion and the principles thereof. Space ways and space motion and the principles thereof.

Let's take unbendable arm. It's nothing to do with anything physical at all actually apart from the 'shell' of the arm, the empty form. It's nothing to do with it being straight either. It's solely to do with the principles of energy flow.

Being an empty vessel means when another connects or grabs etc. their energy just enters your empty vessel thus it joins yours and goes where yours is going. That's the simplicity.

So the starting point is emptyness.

Peace.G.

sakumeikan 02-28-2013 05:33 PM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Dear Graham,
I am a empty headed most of the time.Does this mean I am moviong forward on my spiritual plane??Cheers, Joe.

graham christian 02-28-2013 05:37 PM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Ha, ha. It's a good sign. Just be careful with what you fill it back up with.;)

Peace.G.

Dan Richards 02-28-2013 07:45 PM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 324047)
So no muscles or sinews or anything of the sort is even given any attention to whatsoever.

Thank you, Graham!

Even in the "skin is structure" model - there is nothing in the body. No bones, no muscles, no tendons, no fascia... I mean where do we stop with those kinds of descriptions? Because if we've gotten all the way down to fascia - why stop there. Let's keep going! Chemical elements, atoms, neutrinos, protons, electrons, quarks, strings - oh, strings of what? Energy? Oh, snap. There's that energy stuff again.

bkedelen 02-28-2013 09:08 PM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 324055)
Energy? Oh, snap. There's that energy stuff again.

If you torture any physics concept enough, it can appear to support your hypothesis.

graham christian 03-01-2013 05:23 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
O.K. This is not an anti-something post or thread it's just to show my way which is no doubt similar to some other's ways and different to 'internal' or bagua type ways.

I have seen descriptions of unbendable arm for example which as far as I know came from shin shin toitsu in the Aikido world but has been described by others in terms of tendons and muscles and sinews etc. So maybe that's how certain people see it and do it but it's not how I do it and neither is it how they do it in Ki Aikido for example.

Plus unbendable arm is not an arm that doesn't bend either for that straight arm is just the exercise for practice. It's just a flow like water through a hosepipe.

Peace.G.

graham christian 03-01-2013 05:31 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 324055)
Thank you, Graham!

Even in the "skin is structure" model - there is nothing in the body. No bones, no muscles, no tendons, no fascia... I mean where do we stop with those kinds of descriptions? Because if we've gotten all the way down to fascia - why stop there. Let's keep going! Chemical elements, atoms, neutrinos, protons, electrons, quarks, strings - oh, strings of what? Energy? Oh, snap. There's that energy stuff again.

Hi Dan. Yes, things can be made too complex and complicated. I have a view and it's more to do with the mind. When a person is not facing things comfortably then they make them complicated.

By the way the basic principles from yin and yang and circles etc can be seen in operation when viewing an atom too. No difference.

Peace.G.

phitruong 03-01-2013 06:31 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 324055)
strings - oh, strings of what?

aren't strings sort of fibers? and isn't fiber what we need to empty ourselves? wouldn't that make Metamucil the ki supplement? just trying to follow the logic to its conclusion. :)

phitruong 03-01-2013 06:34 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 324059)
If you torture any physics concept enough, it can appear to support your hypothesis.

wouldn't torture be violating some Geneva convention? would you use water-boarding or electrocution or pulling teeth/finger nails? and would under such torture, physics give out unreliable information like organic chemistry formula? :D

mrlizard123 03-01-2013 08:21 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Like an empty vessel?

ryback 03-01-2013 08:48 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 324064)
It's just a flow like water through a hosepipe.

Peace.G.

It seems a very accurate discription for the unbendable arm. In fact it is a test. A test to see if your flow of Ki can hold its ground against an applied force. But it is a static test, it is not a way to do a technique, but a way to practice the Ki and Kokyu principles in order to use them during waza. So in that manner it is important to make sure that you don't resist using any muscular strength, only the flow of Ki.
On the other hand during waza,you have to be moving, so you will use your muscles in order to be able to move your arms, your feet and your hips. But the use of muscles must remain to that and not be used as a resisting force against the Uke, or in order to throw him or pin him.
I know that there are people, some of them were close to o'sensei, who claim that there is no Ki, that o'sensei's advantage was always due to muscular training, isometrics or whatever. But the fact of the matter is that o'sensei was always teaching the use of Ki, the balance between IN and YO and it is quite clear from recorded evidence that he was very vigorous and effective even at an age where to speak for muscular strength would be ridiculous to say the least. So i'm very sceptical towards these people no matter how important they are supposed to be.
In my opinion in aikido you have to develope simultaneously the physical, spiritual, and mental self.Isometrics, weight lifting, aerobic e.t.c are subjects for sports men and not martial artists.

graham christian 03-01-2013 09:07 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Quote:

Rich Hobbs wrote: (Post 324069)
Like an empty vessel?

Yes indeed. Now whenever you hear someone saying it as an advanced martial artist you will have an idea of where they are coming from. I have heard Segal say it before as one example of someone you may know. I'm sure it has been said many times by many past people too.

Here's the thing......in the way I teach anyway, and those I know doing similar. I have no qualms styarting from spiritual. Thus I tell them outright we are not here on the mat to learn about physical strength or connective tissue or but merely principles.

Thus they learn to see what is there beyond physical. They learn there is a center, there is a centre line, there is space, there is circle there is geometric pathways of energy, there are all these talked about things and they are real.

The reality comes through emptying the body much like emptying the mind. Once its empty you can then allow it to be filled but now you are one controlling such things. In fact I wouldn't say controlling as much as allowing.

Peace.G.

bkedelen 03-01-2013 09:26 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 324067)
wouldn't torture be violating some Geneva convention? would you use water-boarding or electrocution or pulling teeth/finger nails? and would under such torture, physics give out unreliable information like organic chemistry formula? :D

Where is the like button?

Hellis 03-01-2013 09:41 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 324071)
Yes indeed. Now whenever you hear someone saying it as an advanced martial artist you will have an idea of where they are coming from. Peace.G.

Graham

I have heard the ``empty mind `` analogy used many times over my 55 years of Aikido – I have studied at length with many ``advanced martial artists `` such as Kenshiro Abbe – Tadashi Abe – Masahilo Nakazono – M Noro – TK Chiba – T Otani – M Harada – N Tamura – H Tada – H Kobayashi.

In all those years and all those great teachers they never explained such enlightenment.

I must be honest, the dan grades at the Hut Dojo would discuss the empty body as a matter of some importance after a previous night of a few beers and a pretty mean curry..
Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
Aikido Controversy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMuDqKOjnls

graham christian 03-01-2013 10:54 AM

Re: The Empty Body
 
Words. Literally saying the same words? I doubt many do except those who copy. Conceptually though I bet most did and do but do you hear them is the question.

Empty mind: empty of what? Thoughts, confusions, etc.etc. Therefor no attention on such things.

Empty body: empty of what? feelings, tensions, etc. etc. Therefor no attention on such things.

All experienced martial artists mention these things as essential to energy flow and may use such terms as calm body, relaxed body, weight underside body, etc. etc etc.

Very simple really. Not so simple to achieve.

Peace.G.


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