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Dan Richards 02-24-2013 12:51 PM

hand technique = strike technique
 
Throwing out some notes for discussion. Wanting to condense a model of understanding that can allow us to see (and execute) that the applied hand techniques are exactly the same as the striking techniques. Same forces, same axis of operation. All these correspond to the sword movements. It's the same thing.

Interested in input and comments as I whittle this down. Cheers...

ikkyo = yokomenuchi (middle) = cutting horizontal Y axis (finished by Z-axis shomen)

nikyo = shomenuchi = cutting vertical Z axis through center

sankyo = yokomenuchi (neck/upper/jodan) = cutting horizontal axis = side-through cut = operates on Y axis

yonkyo = shomenuchi = cutting on Z axis

gote kaeshi = tsuki = thrust = return = stab = operates on X axis (lower gedan tsuki)

shihohage = yokomenuchi (lower gedan)

iriminage = tsuki (mundetsuki) (jodan)

Striking sequence of ikkyo, sankyo, and shihonage are the same. Cutting through Y axis, and then finishing with a shomen cut through Z axis.

Axis reference at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coord_system_CA_0.svg

Adam Huss 02-24-2013 02:46 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 323913)
Throwing out some notes for discussion. Wanting to condense a model of understanding that can allow us to see (and execute) that the applied hand techniques are exactly the same as the striking techniques. Same forces, same axis of operation. All these correspond to the sword movements. It's the same thing.

Interested in input and comments as I whittle this down. Cheers...

ikkyo = yokomenuchi (middle) = cutting horizontal Y axis (finished by Z-axis shomen)

nikyo = shomenuchi = cutting vertical Z axis through center

sankyo = yokomenuchi (neck/upper/jodan) = cutting horizontal axis = side-through cut = operates on Y axis

yonkyo = shomenuchi = cutting on Z axis

gote kaeshi = tsuki = thrust = return = stab = operates on X axis (lower gedan tsuki)

shihohage = yokomenuchi (lower gedan)

iriminage = tsuki (mundetsuki) (jodan)

Striking sequence of ikkyo, sankyo, and shihonage are the same. Cutting through Y axis, and then finishing with a shomen cut through Z axis.

Axis reference at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coord_system_CA_0.svg

Yoshinkan and, I think, Nishio, aikido often focus on relating hand and sword techniques.

Dan Richards 02-24-2013 03:06 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
tenchinage = tsuki gedan (lower) with jodan (upper)

Striking sequence for gote kaeshi, iriminage, and tenchinage are the same. Applying tsuki with both hands - spirals moving through the X axis.

Dan Richards 02-24-2013 03:22 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
nikyo and yonkyo are the same. Shomenuchi cutting movements on the Z axis.

Dan Richards 02-24-2013 03:28 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
So, all these "techniques" can be broken down and grouped together in terms of the axis on which they are applied, and we can see that they are the same as the corresponding strikes. There is no difference.

Z axis: nikyo and yonkyo = shomen
Y axis: ikkyo, sankyo, and shihonage = yokomen
X axis: gote kaeshi, iriminage, and tenchinage = tsuki

graham christian 02-24-2013 04:38 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Nice try. Although I like translating the techniques into 'weapons' I found the way you put it above didn't give me enough of a clear concept.

Firstly as I see it problem number one would be the mind of who you are addressing. Some work better with 'painting by numbers' step by step. Some with a more descriptive method. Some with lines and axis etc.

Secondly would be the way the person reading is used to doing the technique as they all have versions.

So if the aim is a way where everyone gets it then that will never happen. However, if it's to show your way as clearly as you can then that's good.

My way of explaining for example is more descriptive ie: analogous to picturing yourself holding a sword and the position you are in and what you then do with sword. Thus showing the relationship to the technique. Meanwhile the way you describe above I would do only when doing actual sword work.

Peace G.

Dan Richards 02-24-2013 07:16 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Thanks for your input, Graham.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 323926)
Secondly would be the way the person reading is used to doing the technique as they all have versions.

The "versions" people do doesn't matter. All the versions, if executed correctly, correspond exactly to the movements of strikes.

Let's take kote gaeshi as an example. kote gaeshi, means 小手返, "forearm return." The technique "kote gaeshi" doesn't work from any turning of the wrist. If people think that, they don't really understand the principle behind the technique. In fact, I think the name "forearm return" gives a much better idea of what's really going on. The forearm of uke is returned back into their center - in a spiraling motion. The force is applied by nage on the X axis through uke's center.

The following video has very good examples of tsuki wasa. And you'll notice that the movements of tsuki are exactly the same movements in gote kaeshi - regardless of the "version." Every kote gaeshi begins with nage's outside hand moving - capturing uke - and then turning palm-side down. Then as the outside hand begins to rotate back into a palm-side up position, the inside hand comes in and rotates to a palm-side down position. And kote gaeshi is executed. Nage's hands, hips, and body move in exactly the same way as tsuki.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3P1C-kZdf8

If anyone reading this does a few of those tsuki combinations; left-right, and then right-left, and then looks at what they do with their hand movements in kote gaeshi, I guarantee, they'll think, "Damn, that guy is right. That's exactly what I do."

Kote gaeshi is tsuki.

Dan Richards 02-24-2013 07:23 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
In fact, to add; even if you just do a single tsuki - with only one hand - sending the hand out, rotating palm down, capturing uke, and returning the hand to palm up. You've just done a perfectly effective one-hand version of kote gaeshi.

Chris Li 02-24-2013 10:26 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 323913)
Throwing out some notes for discussion. Wanting to condense a model of understanding that can allow us to see (and execute) that the applied hand techniques are exactly the same as the striking techniques. Same forces, same axis of operation. All these correspond to the sword movements. It's the same thing.

Interested in input and comments as I whittle this down. Cheers...

ikkyo = yokomenuchi (middle) = cutting horizontal Y axis (finished by Z-axis shomen)

nikyo = shomenuchi = cutting vertical Z axis through center

sankyo = yokomenuchi (neck/upper/jodan) = cutting horizontal axis = side-through cut = operates on Y axis

yonkyo = shomenuchi = cutting on Z axis

gote kaeshi = tsuki = thrust = return = stab = operates on X axis (lower gedan tsuki)

shihohage = yokomenuchi (lower gedan)

iriminage = tsuki (mundetsuki) (jodan)

Striking sequence of ikkyo, sankyo, and shihonage are the same. Cutting through Y axis, and then finishing with a shomen cut through Z axis.

Axis reference at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coord_system_CA_0.svg

I think that you're right, they are all the same thing. OTOH, given that initial assumption, you may see why I would also say that spending a lot of time calculating the angles of the various strikes and locks in relation to each other is not, IMO, very useful in the long run.

In other words, the reason why all of these things are the same is also the answer to why dwelling on those strikes and locks overmuch doesn't really help you out, IMO.

Best,

Chris

lbb 02-25-2013 07:57 AM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
I don't quite get how you're using the terms x, y, z axis. I understand quite well what the x, y and z axis are, but in coordinate geometry (which is, after all, where these axes are defined), the x, y and z axis never move, and in your model, they appear to do so, sometimes with reference to one partner's body and sometimes with reference to the other partner's body and sometimes I'm not sure what.

phitruong 02-25-2013 08:06 AM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
still scratching my head with the whole thing (*could be lice or dry scalp*). i have been going for the simple approach. arms manage the up-n-down, since we do that sort of things all the time such as picking up spoon, fork, knifes, chopsticks, coffee, wife, kids, ... etc. if i go with that then i pretty much practiced all the time, well, at least when i am awake. also legs and hips also good at going up-n-down too so lets use that. then you have the horizontal plane, where you legs, hips, waist turn and moving about. you do that all the time too, so why not use that. also since i eat and crap on a regular basis, i would use the middle for store and release model. just a simple approach from a simple person. :D

graham christian 02-25-2013 11:39 AM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 323932)
Thanks for your input, Graham.

The "versions" people do doesn't matter. All the versions, if executed correctly, correspond exactly to the movements of strikes.

Let's take kote gaeshi as an example. kote gaeshi, means 小手返, "forearm return." The technique "kote gaeshi" doesn't work from any turning of the wrist. If people think that, they don't really understand the principle behind the technique. In fact, I think the name "forearm return" gives a much better idea of what's really going on. The forearm of uke is returned back into their center - in a spiraling motion. The force is applied by nage on the X axis through uke's center.

The following video has very good examples of tsuki wasa. And you'll notice that the movements of tsuki are exactly the same movements in gote kaeshi - regardless of the "version." Every kote gaeshi begins with nage's outside hand moving - capturing uke - and then turning palm-side down. Then as the outside hand begins to rotate back into a palm-side up position, the inside hand comes in and rotates to a palm-side down position. And kote gaeshi is executed. Nage's hands, hips, and body move in exactly the same way as tsuki.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3P1C-kZdf8

If anyone reading this does a few of those tsuki combinations; left-right, and then right-left, and then looks at what they do with their hand movements in kote gaeshi, I guarantee, they'll think, "Damn, that guy is right. That's exactly what I do."

Kote gaeshi is tsuki.

I can see the concept you give and that's fine. I can see that done that way it has the same movements and 'thrust' as tsuki. So that's fine. So the way you put it above comes across better to me than mentioning axis. So that's all good for me anyway.

However, your description of what kote gaeshi is - is one version. As I said there are more versions than just that one and there are versions which don't then fit the analogy.

That said, if your purpose is to show the relationship of said version to strikes then fine. If it's then to show the relation to sword then I take it you are saying that's also the same as a sword thrust. O.k.

Peace.G.

Basia Halliop 02-25-2013 12:02 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
I don't know, it seems a bit trivial to notice that that everything is in some sense up or down or in or out or sideways. We live in a three-dimensional universe, so of course every movement we make in this universe can be broken down into combinations of three directions...

Also it feels to me much more accurate and simple to describe many motions in ways that involve rotations around an axis, and/or translations in space. And most movements in aikido are superpositions of more than one thing (translations and rotations using various planes and axes). I don't think most techniques can be accurately described as simple movements along one axis or in one plane.

Basia Halliop 02-25-2013 12:06 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 323946)
I don't quite get how you're using the terms x, y, z axis. I understand quite well what the x, y and z axis are, but in coordinate geometry (which is, after all, where these axes are defined), the x, y and z axis never move, and in your model, they appear to do so, sometimes with reference to one partner's body and sometimes with reference to the other partner's body and sometimes I'm not sure what.

It is possible to define a coordinate system that moves with respect to some other frame of reference, as long as it's self consistent within itself (i.e., x, y, and z can move with respect to the earth or with respect to the solar system, etc, as long as they keep their relationship to each other). Not sure if that's really what's happening here, though.

Quote:

yonkyo = shomenuchi = cutting on Z axis
If you're doing shomenuchi in such a way that you are only moving with respect to uke's z axis, and not their x axis, then you're doing something I've never seen before.

I think what you're saying makes much more sense if I mentally delete all the x, y, z stuff (which seems to me either inaccurate or unclear) and just leave the observations that some techniques use similar movements as some strikes.

Cliff Judge 02-25-2013 02:53 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
I'm not seeing this at all. The techniques are all more complex movements than the strikes, and generally involve portions that are not directed at the partner.

ryback 02-26-2013 01:25 AM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
I agree with Cliff and Basia that Aikido techniques are much more complicated than the stricking descriptions,they incorporate more than just one axis, sometimes you move in two or three orbits simultaneously.
I also agree with Graham when he says that sometimes a kote gaeshi can be like a tsuki and sometimes not.
In some videos that Dan posted it would appear that his descriptions are correct, but that is not always the case. Let's take for example the already mentioned kote gaeshi.The Uke is attacking with a shomen stricke and the Tori is sliding in on his side, sweeping the uke's stricking hand downwards. Next the tori makes a tenkan rotation, taking the uke's arm into his centre and taking the uke's balance. Then the tori steps far and diagonaly back while at the same time he makes the kote gaeshi move throwing the uke into the space he created by stepping back.
First of all I agree with Dan about the way kote gaeshi is executed. It is indeed a forearm return to its centre, that is a very accurate description. The movement of the feet and hips could very well be the ones of a tsuki, but also one could use the same steps and tai sabaki for a deep gedan level shomen with a sword.
In tachi dori kote gaeshi, when the uke attacks with a shomen you use the same asi sabaki, te sabaki and tai sabaki as in the previous example to disarm him with a kote gaeshi. But the correct execution is that while you "return his forearm to its centre" you actually cut with the uke's own sword, thus kote gaeshi gets a shomen feeling rather than tsuki. Feeling that you are cutting with the uke's sword gives much more power to the technique, from a leverage point of view.
In a Nikkyo example i can see why it is usually a shomen motion. Yet, even in that technique, there is a variation that if the uke tries to turn while you perform an "outside Nikkyo" you immediatelly change your cutting movement from a vertical one to a horizontal one in order to compensate. Therefore the Nikkyo then has more of a sideways slash feeling, than a shomen uchi feeling.
Tenchi nage and irimi nage have nothing to do with tsuki the way i see it.The arms and hands are making a kokyu circle and once more the asi sabaki and tai sabaki could be the same in a tsuki or shomen move.
So my point here is that the techniques of Aikido in terms of feet movement, tai sabaki and the orbits in which the tori moves are far to complicated to be described with the stricking movements. They have much more complex principles. Furthermore the technique is not only the closing throwing or immobilizing move but also all the way to get there.

phitruong 02-26-2013 10:10 AM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Yannis Mousoulis wrote: (Post 323978)
So my point here is that the techniques of Aikido in terms of feet movement, tai sabaki and the orbits in which the tori moves are far to complicated to be described with the stricking movements. They have much more complex principles. Furthermore the technique is not only the closing throwing or immobilizing move but also all the way to get there.

why should it be complicated? if you do your empty hand techniques like you have a sword in your hands, wouldn't that be strikes or put you in position to strike?

graham christian 02-26-2013 10:57 AM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Nicely put Yannis.

mathewjgano 02-26-2013 11:49 AM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 323913)
Throwing out some notes for discussion. Wanting to condense a model of understanding that can allow us to see (and execute) that the applied hand techniques are exactly the same as the striking techniques. Same forces, same axis of operation. All these correspond to the sword movements. It's the same thing.

Interested in input and comments as I whittle this down. Cheers...

ikkyo = yokomenuchi (middle) = cutting horizontal Y axis (finished by Z-axis shomen)

nikyo = shomenuchi = cutting vertical Z axis through center

sankyo = yokomenuchi (neck/upper/jodan) = cutting horizontal axis = side-through cut = operates on Y axis

yonkyo = shomenuchi = cutting on Z axis

gote kaeshi = tsuki = thrust = return = stab = operates on X axis (lower gedan tsuki)

shihohage = yokomenuchi (lower gedan)

iriminage = tsuki (mundetsuki) (jodan)

Striking sequence of ikkyo, sankyo, and shihonage are the same. Cutting through Y axis, and then finishing with a shomen cut through Z axis.

Axis reference at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coord_system_CA_0.svg

Would it be accurate to say your referrences of individual axes denote a relatively greater degree of influence? My understanding is that all movement should ideally be operating/strong on all three at the same time (even cuts, which otherwise seem to be planar), but I can see how at different times we might have an axis or two which hold relatively greater power potential...
My understanding is that any whole-body movement should ideally have the ability to issue strikes from any point of the body (more or less) so, from this standpoint, potentially anything (or near enough) can be a strike; the form is somewhat moot.
That said, I really like the similarity between ura ken and sankyo (we often put/strike the sankyo into uke's face before moving on to the pin or a throw). When I think of them as more or less the same thing, it seems to help me get the right feeling.

ryback 02-26-2013 02:44 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 323988)
why should it be complicated? if you do your empty hand techniques like you have a sword in your hands, wouldn't that be strikes or put you in position to strike?

Why certainly. Whether you cut with a sword or a te gatana shomen uchi is the same.
Whether you thrust with a tanto or a fist the strike still has the same principles.
But i think that we had a slight misunderstanding here. What I actually meant is that the Aikido techniques are more complicated than mere strikes.
For example if you step in and cut you move in a specific orbit. But in order to execute a correct Ikkyo tenkan followed by tenkan ho, you move in a much more complicated way in terms of momentum,te sabaki, asi sabaki, tai sabaki and coordination.
The principles of the techniques are very deep and demanding,much more than the ones of a strike.
But, of course, a correct strike is not a easy issue either, but that's another story...:)

graham christian 02-26-2013 03:28 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Just to throw this into the mix as really it's my main personal question or maybe not even a question really but view. Why the sword?

Using tsuki as your example I equate that more with the spear.(Thrusts)

Tegatana 'cuts' with the sword. Circular with the jo.

Peace.G.

ryback 02-28-2013 04:01 AM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 324004)
Just to throw this into the mix as really it's my main personal question or maybe not even a question really but view. Why the sword?

Using tsuki as your example I equate that more with the spear.(Thrusts)

Tegatana 'cuts' with the sword. Circular with the jo.

Peace.G.

Yes, I agree agree completely with that Graham. The Jo Choku Tsuki is a much better example for a parallel with a hand tsuki(punch). We actually learn how to do te gatana shomen by applying the sword principles to empty hand and we learn how to do a correct empty hand tsuki by applying the Jo principles (and as you very correctly said the circular movement that it incorporates).

Dan Richards 03-07-2013 12:54 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 324004)
Just to throw this into the mix as really it's my main personal question or maybe not even a question really but view. Why the sword?

Using tsuki as your example I equate that more with the spear.(Thrusts)

Tegatana 'cuts' with the sword. Circular with the jo.

Peace.G.

A sword still has within its design the point of a spear. There are applications in which the sword is a spear. A knife, too. Same thing. The tsuki is a spiral thrust and can be executed with a spear, sword, knife or even ball point pen. It's the same. And even effective movements that may appear externally linear are still spirals.

Yes, a knifehand strike (tegatana) can be used to cut, but also to strike, and all are spirals.

The sword is generally meant to cut or thrust into soft areas. The jo strikes hard areas - but can also thrust into soft areas. And even though the targets may be slightly different, the movements are exactly the same. A jo is also a spear. A jo is also a sword, because the power sent through the jo can cut through - it doesn't just stop. It's all the same thing.

Tsuki with the hand, sword, jo, McDonald's french fry, chopstick, fork, flashlight, toothpick, tv remote - is all the same. And it is also the same movement within gote kaeshi, iriminage, and tenchinage. All these tsuki movements operate through the front/back direction of the body. Not only uke's, but nage's too. It's the same.

Cliff Judge 03-07-2013 02:09 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 324371)
A sword still has within its design the point of a spear.

Are you sure that some spears and some swords don't just happen to have points?

graham christian 03-07-2013 02:21 PM

Re: hand technique = strike technique
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 324371)
A sword still has within its design the point of a spear. There are applications in which the sword is a spear. A knife, too. Same thing. The tsuki is a spiral thrust and can be executed with a spear, sword, knife or even ball point pen. It's the same. And even effective movements that may appear externally linear are still spirals.

Yes, a knifehand strike (tegatana) can be used to cut, but also to strike, and all are spirals.

The sword is generally meant to cut or thrust into soft areas. The jo strikes hard areas - but can also thrust into soft areas. And even though the targets may be slightly different, the movements are exactly the same. A jo is also a spear. A jo is also a sword, because the power sent through the jo can cut through - it doesn't just stop. It's all the same thing.

Tsuki with the hand, sword, jo, McDonald's french fry, chopstick, fork, flashlight, toothpick, tv remote - is all the same. And it is also the same movement within gote kaeshi, iriminage, and tenchinage. All these tsuki movements operate through the front/back direction of the body. Not only uke's, but nage's too. It's the same.

Thanks for the explanation Dan.

A sword does indeed have a point and it's there for times when using it like a spear or even the point of a knife as you rightly say.

I prefer to point out how they are not the same myself and still fail to see which aspect of itself is 'all the same' by your explanation. It seems like you are aware of something which is all the same but I am not seeing it.

A pointed instrument pierces and a weapon with that as its main construct is so used be it a spear, a bullet, an arrow etc.

An edged 'weapon' with that as it's main construct is used for cutting be it a sword, a knife, a saw, or even a circular saw for that matter.

A staff or Jo as a 'weapon' has no point or edge as it's main construct but does as it's main construct have length and natural centre. So primarily used for turning but very interestingly can be used for the other two very easily. So it is more interchangeable in it's use.

I don't see how they are all spirals either myself.

I like your view on through and personally have that as vital point to understand.

So if the thing you are talking about as all the same is spirals then I would hold that as an interesting view, that's fine, but definitely not mine so yet to understand that viewpoint.

Peace.G.


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