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-   -   The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60 (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22269)

ChrisHein 02-03-2013 01:24 PM

The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
For about a year or so now I've been working with the material from Budo Renshuu. Budo Renshuu was published in 1933, and is one of the earliest documents on Ueshiba (and Inoue)'s Aiki budo. These techniques give us a very early look at the foundation that was to become Aikido.

This material is not easy to get through, and finding video examples, or other written work is difficult. As far as I've found no one in recent times that has gone through this material. So I thought I would share the work in progress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHjl1...ature=youtu.be

This is from the Kata Dori section (techniques 49-60) There is only one techniques missing from the kata dori section, and if I would have been thinking a little more when I shot these I would have included it. Never the less, this is most of the Kata Dori section.

I've now gone through all of the techniques in the book (166 of them) at least once. Some sections I'm becoming quite familiar with. Although because of the vagueness of the book, it's sometimes hard to get exactly what is happening with the technique. This is a rough video I made, just to see how the techniques were starting to look. It was awesome to see some of the techniques jump off the page and come to life again.

Hope you enjoy. And if you have any experience with any of the techniques in the book, I would love to hear from you. Deciphering exactly how these techniques are suppose to look is a challenge!

Enjoy.

hughrbeyer 02-03-2013 02:12 PM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Cool.

#51 is a koshinage? I had thought that the koshi throws didn't actually come from the Founder. Not so?

Did Budo Renshu not specify footwork for #50? I learned it with crossover footwork you're not showing there.

ChrisHein 02-03-2013 02:18 PM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
#51 There are several koshi nage's in budo renshuu.

You know, I think you might be right about #50. My translation says "advancing from this left foot, steps in to the enemy's rear with this right leg and extends this right elbow toward the front of the enemy's neck"

A cross over step would make sense there. And would fit the description- Thanks Hugh!

Michael Varin 02-04-2013 12:15 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Hey. For the impromptu nature, those didn't turn out bad!

Technique #54, shiho nage with ushiro eri dori assist, is a powerful technique. I have good ukemi and seldom feel frightened during techniques, no matter how hard I am being thrown. In the videos, Chris wasn't throwing particularly hard, but I will say that I felt my cranium heading towards the ground in a way that I found somewhat alarming.

grondahl 02-04-2013 01:31 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Hugh Beyer wrote: (Post 323112)
Cool.

#51 is a koshinage? I had thought that the koshi throws didn't actually come from the Founder. Not so?

Did Budo Renshu not specify footwork for #50? I learned it with crossover footwork you're not showing there.

There is a interview with Saito where he claims that koshinage was one of Ueshiba´s favored waza. I think that it was the more koshi guruma-like koshinage with feet together that Nishio introduced to hombu.

ewolput 02-04-2013 01:21 PM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
When I watched the videoclip I saw a strong similarity with techniques from Tomiki's Aikido Koryu no kata. It is said the koryu no kata is based upon techniques learned by Kenji Tomiki and Hideo Ohba at Ueshiba's dojo. Btw it seems KenJi Tomiki was involved in editing this book.

Just a thought,
Eddy

ChrisHein 02-04-2013 03:43 PM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Eddy Wolput wrote: (Post 323157)
When I watched the videoclip I saw a strong similarity with techniques from Tomiki's Aikido Koryu no kata. It is said the koryu no kata is based upon techniques learned by Kenji Tomiki and Hideo Ohba at Ueshiba's dojo. Btw it seems KenJi Tomiki was involved in editing this book.

Just a thought,
Eddy

I've spent a lot of time watching video of Ueshiba, Inoue, and Shirata, but I didn't think to look at the koru no kata from Tomiki. Even though that would make perfect sense. I'll check some of that out tonight.

There are lot's of things in these techniques that are a part of modern Aikido. But there are so interesting differences. They've been fun to work with.

ewolput 02-05-2013 02:14 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Hideo Ohba and Takeshi Inoue performing old style aikido
http://youtu.be/LZ0Z37Gc4UM

Eddy

Alex Megann 02-05-2013 05:31 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Eddy Wolput wrote: (Post 323179)
Hideo Ohba and Takeshi Inoue performing old style aikido
http://youtu.be/LZ0Z37Gc4UM

Very interesting.

What struck me was how they alternated left-right-left-right grips. My limited experience with Shodokan-style training had a very strong bias towards right-handed attacks (both grips and strikes). Is that typical? If so, is it a recent development?

Alex

ewolput 02-05-2013 06:55 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Alex Megann wrote: (Post 323181)
Very interesting.

What struck me was how they alternated left-right-left-right grips. My limited experience with Shodokan-style training had a very strong bias towards right-handed attacks (both grips and strikes). Is that typical? If so, is it a recent development?

Alex

There are different groups operating under the name Tomiki Aikido or Shodokan Aikido. The koryu no kata of Tomiki Aikido are formalised by Hideo Ohba and his students. Kenji Tomiki was only involved in the 3rd and 4th set. There are 6 sets or koryu no kata. Most of the Shodokan people are focusing on 3rd and 4th set, of course there are exceptions. Some people say there is "Old School" and "New School". New School is Shodokan and JAA-groups which had ties in the past with Shodokan.
Old School are people who kept Tomiki's and Ohba's teaching inclusive the 6 koryu no kata. In the old school it is normal to practice both sides. I believe this is the same in new school, although some clubs maybe only do righthanded. According the grading syllabus you have to do it both sides.
At this moment some groups in the JAA are researching classical Kodokan Judo kata, because in the past the link between judo and aikido was much closer.

Just a thought,
Eddy

Alex Megann 02-05-2013 07:59 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Eddy Wolput wrote: (Post 323183)
There are different groups operating under the name Tomiki Aikido or Shodokan Aikido. The koryu no kata of Tomiki Aikido are formalised by Hideo Ohba and his students. Kenji Tomiki was only involved in the 3rd and 4th set. There are 6 sets or koryu no kata. Most of the Shodokan people are focusing on 3rd and 4th set, of course there are exceptions. Some people say there is "Old School" and "New School". New School is Shodokan and JAA-groups which had ties in the past with Shodokan.
Old School are people who kept Tomiki's and Ohba's teaching inclusive the 6 koryu no kata. In the old school it is normal to practice both sides. I believe this is the same in new school, although some clubs maybe only do righthanded. According the grading syllabus you have to do it both sides.
At this moment some groups in the JAA are researching classical Kodokan Judo kata, because in the past the link between judo and aikido was much closer.

Just a thought,
Eddy

Thanks, Eddy.

The group I used to train with (a long time ago!) were BAA, who I am fairly sure were JAA affiliates, so I would guess you would class them as "new school". They also had a strong focus on shiai rather than kata, which would probably explain the right-hand bias.

Alex

chillzATL 02-05-2013 09:00 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Nice video Chris! With the exception of 51 and 60, all of those techniques (or an extremely close variation) are commonly practiced in our style. You'll see people do that type of koshi (51), but that's not the type of koshi we typically practice. I don't recall ever seeing 60 practiced as a technique, but you see people end up in that position often enough. About the only thing we do different really is adding some movement to stretch uke out a bit first, get them off their center a bit so that they're not standing right over their base. Good job though, you always do good vids.

grondahl 02-05-2013 10:34 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
51 is pretty close to this one: http://youtu.be/HoL1zQR88KI?t=3m53s

ChrisHein 02-05-2013 11:21 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 323199)
51 is pretty close to this one: http://youtu.be/HoL1zQR88KI?t=3m53s

HA! I've never seen Saito do that variation. Cool!

ChrisHein 02-05-2013 11:26 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 323193)
Nice video Chris! With the exception of 51 and 60, all of those techniques (or an extremely close variation) are commonly practiced in our style. You'll see people do that type of koshi (51), but that's not the type of koshi we typically practice. I don't recall ever seeing 60 practiced as a technique, but you see people end up in that position often enough. About the only thing we do different really is adding some movement to stretch uke out a bit first, get them off their center a bit so that they're not standing right over their base. Good job though, you always do good vids.

Thanks Jason. I think 60 is pretty interesting, I've not seen it done in Aikido before. There are more interesting throws coming in the other sections. It's neat to me to see, when we compare our different Aikido styles, which of these techniques were favored by different instructors and made it in their system, but other ones that seem strange and our particular style doesn't do them at all. It's fun. It's like looking at pictures of our grandparents and saying "oh, you have uncle bob's nose".. HA!

Alfonso 02-05-2013 11:52 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
hey Chris, have you seen the Kajo series yet?

ChrisHein 02-05-2013 01:54 PM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: (Post 323204)
hey Chris, have you seen the Kajo series yet?

Are you talking about this ? I haven't given it a very serious look yet. Maybe I'll check it out today. Thanks

ChrisHein 02-05-2013 02:00 PM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Eddy Wolput wrote: (Post 323179)
Hideo Ohba and Takeshi Inoue performing old style aikido
http://youtu.be/LZ0Z37Gc4UM

Eddy

Hey Eddy,

Thanks for the link! That was a fun watch, and again I saw things from there that I didn't learn in my own Aikido training, but are in 'BR' (Budo Renshuu). Thanks!

Robert Cowham 02-05-2013 03:32 PM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 323199)
51 is pretty close to this one: http://youtu.be/HoL1zQR88KI?t=3m53s

Bjorn Saw, uke in that clip, now teaches in London:

http://aikidoalive.co.uk/London/Welcome.html

He has some nice videos on Youtube.

Robert

Alfonso 02-05-2013 03:34 PM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Yeah, since you're working on recreating "Budo", this seems to be a nice additional layer of information.
Nice video.

Leonaiki 02-06-2013 01:32 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: (Post 323204)
hey Chris, have you seen the Kajo series yet?

Very interesting point Alfonso because Chris' awesome work (sincerely) fits quite well with the Kajo structure. Eg, shiho nage done on the IPPO axis but one by one, I think we could find many similarities.

Once you have that structure in mind, it seems kinda obvious but I guess one needs to read the Kajo series to have it in mind.

That leads to one conclusion in my opinion: O sensei in the 30ies had already created a system which stemmed from Daito but was already quite different - unless of course, the many techniques of Daito are organized on the kajo cross, which I never heard or read anywhere.

It also explains the proximity wih Tomiki / Shodokan Aikido...

I'd love to watch more...:)

Rob Watson 02-06-2013 09:54 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
About a year or so ago Stan posted this which shows another variation on the #60 throw
http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2013/0...tanley-pranin/

Conrad Gus 02-06-2013 06:47 PM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 323109)
For about a year or so now I've been working with the material from Budo Renshuu. Budo Renshuu was published in 1933, and is one of the earliest documents on Ueshiba (and Inoue)'s Aiki budo. These techniques give us a very early look at the foundation that was to become Aikido.

This material is not easy to get through, and finding video examples, or other written work is difficult. As far as I've found no one in recent times that has gone through this material. So I thought I would share the work in progress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHjl1...ature=youtu.be

This is from the Kata Dori section (techniques 49-60) There is only one techniques missing from the kata dori section, and if I would have been thinking a little more when I shot these I would have included it. Never the less, this is most of the Kata Dori section.

I've now gone through all of the techniques in the book (166 of them) at least once. Some sections I'm becoming quite familiar with. Although because of the vagueness of the book, it's sometimes hard to get exactly what is happening with the technique. This is a rough video I made, just to see how the techniques were starting to look. It was awesome to see some of the techniques jump off the page and come to life again.

Hope you enjoy. And if you have any experience with any of the techniques in the book, I would love to hear from you. Deciphering exactly how these techniques are suppose to look is a challenge!

Enjoy.

I've been working through these as well. They are a challenge - like little puzzles sometimes. I'll have to get the book in front of me and go slowly through your video to see if your "solutions" are the same as mine. The video looks pretty good IMHO.

BTW - shaved head and black gi look pretty badass! ;-)

ChrisHein 02-07-2013 12:12 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Quote:

Conrad Gustafson wrote: (Post 323259)
I've been working through these as well. They are a challenge - like little puzzles sometimes. I'll have to get the book in front of me and go slowly through your video to see if your "solutions" are the same as mine. The video looks pretty good IMHO.

BTW - shaved head and black gi look pretty badass! ;-)

Thanks. Yeah, I feel the same way. Making the video has been great, because with the book in front of me I can more easily see where I may be making mistakes, and miss an atemi or something. It's really hard to go through the technique with a partner, try and decipher what the book is saying, and then try and do it again. The video makes it a little easier. I've also found so many things that seem to be mistakes. Like the instructions saying to move to Uke's right, but the picture shows moving to the left. It's hard to know if there is a movement I'm misunderstanding or if it's just an editing mistake.

From what I understand these books where hand copied, so there are differences. I wrote Pranin Sensei and asked him if he knew how many copies were known to exist, and who had them. He said he didn't know.

I would also love to see all of the Noma Dojo pictures, I think those might help to shed some more light. And if you haven't yet checked out Aikido Densho you should, there is a PDF on Aikido Journal. Some of those pictures help to better show what is going on. There is not a translation of Aikido Densho that I know of, but I've had some of my students do rough translations for me, and the instructions sound much more clear as well.

NagaBaba 02-07-2013 06:26 AM

Re: The techniques of Budo Renshuu #50-60
 
Hi Chris,
This is a good project.
I saw N.Tamura sensei and S.Sugano sensei doing most of those techniques quite often, so we are familiar with them. If you don't mind few general comments:
1. In the moment of the contact the attacker is not unbalanced.
2.You are literally catching attacking hand with your one hand when attacker is doing shomen uchi -- it is very …how should I say in polite way….simplistic :D If you watch 1935 video of O sensei, he is always cutting attacker's attack.
3. I don't believe that O sensei did ANY technique without atemi -- in your video it is not really visible…

Once you apply these three points, the techniques will start to have some martial dimensions.


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