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-   -   Ushiro ate-atemi waza? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22259)

Aikeway 01-31-2013 11:31 AM

Ushiro ate-atemi waza?
 
I've often wondered why Tomiki Sensei classified ushiro ate as atemi waza. At first I thought it must have derived from an additional knee strike into the back, or throwing uke onto a knee placed behind uke as sometimes seen in Daito Ryu techniques. However, that can't be the explanation as the atemi waza must be to off-balance uke rather than an added atemi after the throw. In my experiments, ushiro ate seems to work better as a grab on the shoulders rather than a strike or double strike on both shoulders to effect the off-balancing. If the technique derives from a strike on the shoulders, was it a double palm heel strike or a knife hand strike? Would anybody have any knowledge on this?

patrick de block 01-31-2013 02:04 PM

Re: Ushiro ate-atemi waza?
 
To limit me to the question: I first learned to place my hands on uke's shoulders and 'pull' uke down by stepping to my left rear. Nowadays I do it with a palm heel strike. The objective is to make uke's knees go forward which prevents uke to walk backwards when you step backwards. Walking backwards and turning towards you is what's going to happen if you just put your hands on his shoulders unless uke is very co-operative.

And to not limit me to the question: Uke should be unbalanced before you apply your hands to uke's shoulders.

And don't ask me why it is an atemi waza, I don't know, apart from the usual explanations. :blush: Just one remark: all the atemi are done after the initial kuzushi.:D:straightf

Millsy 01-31-2013 04:23 PM

Re: Ushiro ate-atemi waza?
 
I have seen a variation in a seminar where instead of laying your hands on the shoulders you strike down around the top of the collar bone (?) with both hands either side of the neck, then pull the jaw up and back from underneath with both hands. We didn't practice this but I think it was described as an (possible) origin of the technique.

Aikeway 01-31-2013 09:38 PM

Re: Ushiro ate-atemi waza?
 
Quote:

Tony Mills wrote: (Post 322985)
I have seen a variation in a seminar where instead of laying your hands on the shoulders you strike down around the top of the collar bone (?) with both hands either side of the neck, then pull the jaw up and back from underneath with both hands. We didn't practice this but I think it was described as an (possible) origin of the technique.

Do you recall whether the strikes were with the palm heel or a knife hand (shuto)?

Even when using the palm heel it seems that more of a pull downwards and back at around 45 degrees with the palm heel may work better at off-balancing than a downward strike with a palm heel. Yet it is easy to see how a hard palm heel strike would off-balance with shomen ate, aigamae ate, a hard knife hand strike with gyaku gamae ate and an elbow strike with gedan ate.

patrick de block 02-01-2013 03:11 AM

Re: Ushiro ate-atemi waza?
 
Quote:

Daniel Wilson wrote: (Post 322987)
Do you recall whether the strikes were with the palm heel or a knife hand (shuto)?

I can't comment on the possible origin of the technique but the first of the dagger techniques in Dai San (tanto dori - ushiro ate) comes to my mind. This one is done with a shuto. And I was once told that this technique was originally done with Tori holding a knife and stabbing just behind the ear.

Quote:

Daniel Wilson wrote: (Post 322987)
Even when using the palm heel it seems that more of a pull downwards and back at around 45 degrees with the palm heel may work better at off-balancing than a downward strike with a palm heel. Yet it is easy to see how a hard palm heel strike would off-balance with shomen ate, aigamae ate, a hard knife hand strike with gyaku gamae ate and an elbow strike with gedan ate.

Tomiki differentiates between an atemi at a physical weak point and at a dynamically weak point. You don't strike as in the usual meaning of the word. Shomen Ate is a handpalm strike to the chin as a dynamically weak point, so it is Aiki Age (rising energy) and Ushiro Ate is a handpalm strike with both hands to the shoulders and is Aiki Sage (dropping energy). You don't pull, you put all your weight in your hands and you drop all that weight onto Uke's shoulders to collapse Uke completely who by that moment was already off-balance.

ewolput 02-01-2013 09:34 AM

Re: Ushiro ate-atemi waza?
 
According JAA sources, the origin of ushiro ate is with the Judo Koshiki no Kata - Omote waza Ryoku Hi, which means avoiding the power. Some experts make the remark you have to push strongly the shoulder. BecauseTomiki insisted on attacking the weak dynamical point of the body and not using heavy impact for his atemi waza, I believe ushiro ate can be seen as Tomiki Aikido Atemi waza.

My thought,
Eddy

Millsy 02-01-2013 10:45 PM

Re: Ushiro ate-atemi waza?
 
Quote:

Daniel Wilson wrote: (Post 322987)
Do you recall whether the strikes were with the palm heel or a knife hand (shuto)?

knife hand, the balance is broken by pulling the head back from under the jaw not the strike(s).

PeterR 02-03-2013 04:31 AM

Re: Ushiro ate-atemi waza?
 
None of the Tomiki atemi waza are percussive but are best viewed as using pressure to manipulate uke's body. My personal emphasis is spine but that may or may not be the best way of looking at it.

Ushio-ate actually involves a downward pressure with the small palm coupled with the tori moving backward to effectively collapse uke.

God I love that technique which is why I have it as my gif.

JP3 06-16-2013 06:05 PM

Re: Ushiro ate-atemi waza?
 
A couple quick thoughts...

Tomiki's atemi-waza were not taught to me as percussive, such as the boxer's jab-hook-cross-uppercut, or the various methods of delivering shocking impact using a hand via fist-palm-knife edge-ridge edge- backknuckle, etc.

But... they "could" be, if useful at a proper use moment.

Shomenate, push-drive through the uke's week posture point, generally to the rear but not always so, right? Well, instead of the unbendable arm driving push, attacking center with center .... trade that in for the trained striker's use of a palm heel strike, with exactly the same kuzushi & tsukuri as you'd normally use. Very effective, though the jury is out if it is indeed more effective than the drive through on body drop. If you really do it, showmen is mean mojo.

The same can be done, as mentioned above, with differing strikes, sure. I'll just break down by number not name for my fellow Tomiki folks. You all know this, probably.

#2 lead hand push on elbow, but the follow hand can really come through to pop uke with any number of different strikes and locations. Kata says follow o the face, but a driving strike to the solar plexus can finish the event.

#3 is the easiest to see, knife hand to the face, though I can promise you on this one (figured the hard way, oops) that the "soft" version with spine lock is way more fierce an effect on uke than just the face smack - unless you can get both effects combined, which is harder than you might believe as they aren't "there" anymore.

#4 is the elbow, of course, and I'm sure that you could use chopping motions, palm heel strikes, double knifehand strikes, whatever, as long as the attack is generally taking uke back through the off-balance point directly behing or to a rear corner - either works, some have better success with one, some the other. I like both.


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