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HL1978 01-30-2013 02:27 PM

experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
So I gave some examples of getting under/floating in other threads. Would anyone like to share their experiences in applying this to various waza? What did you notice that changed? Any difficulties?

ChrisHein 01-30-2013 05:01 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
I would like to know more about what you mean by "floating". I use and explain what I would call "floating" in class a lot. And I believe that Aikido technique uses a lot of this.

I would call "floating" the ability to get under your attackers center. By doing this, when your attacker tries to push on you they kind of "float" themselves up and cannot exert much horizontal force on you (because they are losing their connection with the ground).

From what I gather of your previous examples, you are maybe not talking about this. What do you mean when you use the word "float"?

hughrbeyer 01-30-2013 06:22 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Chris, you've got three other threads trying to get people to explain basic concepts. How about leaving this one to answer the question that was asked?

For the OP, this is pretty much standard procedure for us these days--though different people are working the IS stuff to different degrees. Tenchinage is a good example--as soon as uke grabs wrists, nage should already be under him. This continues all through the technique--at the end, where everyone wants to throw down, we have to keep reminding them that even at the end you're not letting uke find a place to land.

Ikkyo, same way--as soon as the touch happens uke is displaced up, which then leads into the rest of the throw.

Yokumenuchi is more interesting--Sensei has always taught to move in to the attack rather than turning with it--now that moving in leads to the same kind of getting under/floating that ikkyo has--and that leads to the technique.

All the waza works and a lot of it even looks similar--it's the engine that changed.

HL1978 01-30-2013 07:05 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 322932)
I would like to know more about what you mean by "floating". I use and explain what I would call "floating" in class a lot. And I believe that Aikido technique uses a lot of this.

I would call "floating" the ability to get under your attackers center. By doing this, when your attacker tries to push on you they kind of "float" themselves up and cannot exert much horizontal force on you (because they are losing their connection with the ground).

From what I gather of your previous examples, you are maybe not talking about this. What do you mean when you use the word "float"?

I'm certainly not the definitive lexicographer here. You need to be under in order to float. Floating is more or less what it feels like if you get popped up onto your heels, you float upwards like a bubble without feeling any resistance. When floated you can be moved around easily, you can still input a push into your partner, but you basically push yourself away and it is easy for your partner to direct you where they want you to go.

Yes, you get under (it feels as though your effective center of mass is lower than your partner), but there is no physical lowering of the body, and there are a number of different ways in which one can get under, of which I have described at least two. How do you generally teach people how to get under, and when they do, do you see a difference in how various waza are applied?

ChrisHein 01-30-2013 09:32 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 322936)

Yes, you get under (it feels as though your effective center of mass is lower than your partner), but there is no physical lowering of the body, and there are a number of different ways in which one can get under, of which I have described at least two. How do you generally teach people how to get under, and when they do, do you see a difference in how various waza are applied?

Yes, I would describe what is done is suwariwaza kokyu ho as a "floating" but you're both sitting on the ground (so you really can't physically get any further under your partner).

I think many Aikido techniques have an element of "floating". I personally don't feel that it's especially "internal" in nature. It does have lot's to do with being able to feel under your partner.

asiawide 01-30-2013 10:24 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 322939)
Yes, I would describe what is done is suwariwaza kokyu ho as a "floating" but you're both sitting on the ground (so you really can't physically get any further under your partner).

I have a question. How do you get under if you can't physically get any further under? This is really hard for me. and probably many others too.

ChrisHein 01-30-2013 11:27 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Jaemin Yu wrote: (Post 322941)
I have a question. How do you get under if you can't physically get any further under? This is really hard for me. and probably many others too.

You drive them up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMHuWiIquTM#t=0m18s is a video of me doing suwariwaza ryote dori kokyu ho. I drive him up, once his center is above mine, he's "floating" which makes it easy to move him away from me.

asiawide 01-31-2013 01:15 AM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 322943)
You drive them up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMHuWiIquTM#t=0m18s is a video of me doing suwariwaza ryote dori kokyu ho. I drive him up, once his center is above mine, he's "floating" which makes it easy to move him away from me.

I'm sorry to keep on asking questions. But how do you drive them up? Once you drive them up, you are under him. But I don't get it how you can reach the state. Thanks!

chillzATL 01-31-2013 08:21 AM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 322925)
So I gave some examples of getting under/floating in other threads. Would anyone like to share their experiences in applying this to various waza? What did you notice that changed? Any difficulties?

While I never thought of it this way, I try to apply the general idea or concept of floating to most any force interaction related to waza. Whether I'm receiving the force or outputting it, I try to keep it as low as possible in my body and send it from there. Preferably that's my feet, but that's often times more the goal than the reality

As for what I noticed, everything is just easier. The techniques that stood out to me the most were the ones that involved more force on force interactions when nage was late on their timing. For instance Shomenuchi ikkyo irimi. We normally teach and practice this in a way that nage moves in as soon as uke begins to raise their hand to strike. So that you are catching uke before their force comes at you and then you just push through for the ikkyo. It's more about timing. I found that through maintaining that focus on ground connection through me and by keeping my intent right, the timing didn't matter. Uke would almost bounce off me.

Another technique would be yokomenuchi kata-otoshi. This one is taught similar to the ikkyo above. Where, via timing, you step in to meet the attack before the full force of it is delivered and drive uke back, out from their center and down. Typically we practice it in a way that if timing is right, you go irimi as mentioned above, if not, you receive it and turn away from it, tenkan, and then drop. Just as with ikkyo I found that focusing on the ground connection and intent that timing didn't matter and the choice to finish irimi or tenkan was mine to make. In comparison to how I'd always done this technique and seen it done, it was completely effortless and my uke commented that it felt like running into a brick wall at the shoulder. One other thing that I noticed was that whether I finished irimi or tenkan, the technique was done exactly the same. Typically when someone is late and they step back they end up grabbing gi and pushing down on the shoulder, almost like some sort of arm drag rather than something that resembles the way the irimi version is done. When doing it the way I mentioned above, nothing changed, once uke was up what happened from there was up to me, but the technique didn't change.

Beyond those two examples, I think any technique where you end up, either on purpose or by accident coming up against uke's force or weight, the difference is pretty noticeable as you don't get pinned down or off balanced as easily.

HL1978 01-31-2013 09:12 AM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 322943)
You drive them up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMHuWiIquTM#t=0m18s is a video of me doing suwariwaza ryote dori kokyu ho. I drive him up, once his center is above mine, he's "floating" which makes it easy to move him away from me.

Chris,

It appears that you are pushing up and out, using the legs, arms, chest etc right? You indicated that once your partner's center is physically above yours he is floating. Clearly once he is above you, he is much easier to manipulate.

When I am referring to floating, you don't need to physically change the difference in height between you and your partner to be under them. You want to redirect their force down to make your partner go up. I discussed part of one way to do this with my shoulder video post.

hughrbeyer 01-31-2013 10:30 AM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Yes, it's done with intent, not by pushing under them.

I find myself telling my kohai a lot these days, "Dig up my feet." They get locked in some force-on-force interaction and I tell them, "Dig up my feet." They get this confused look and then make some overt movement, and I say, "No, no. With your mind. Dig up my feet." And then they do and I fall over. :)

Weird stuff.

mathewjgano 01-31-2013 10:52 AM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Mine's only a rudamentary understanding, but we sometimes practice "backward hanmi handachi," which is (I think) geared toward exploring how to float uke when he/she is physically below you. Mine's only a beginner level of understanding, but it's an interesting orientation to work with; you definately cannot just perform a bicept curl to lift uke, particularly when the arms are extended out away from the core.

In terms of simply floating aite/uke, I've been thinking lately of what one of my sempai told me, which was to be mindful of aite's hip and consciously trying to float it. I imagined a line from his hip going up to my point of contact (which was my tegatana on his front "corner" of the chest) and suddenly the physical struggle diminished noticeably. Holding the orientation in mind and applying my intent to lift/float (rest the driving force on top of my center) got me away from over muscling the contact point...well, less of it anyway.

phitruong 01-31-2013 12:59 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
during one of the seminar, Ikeda sensei had uke sit in seiza and grab his wrist from below while he stood. he would said "i picked" and walked away. uke looked as though he/she just stood up by themselves. if you try to do the usually muscle pull, it won't work. from uke's point of view, it felt as though Ikeda sensei reached down your spine and grabbed your tail bone and push you up. it's a very strange feeling. kinda freaky. i could do it now to certain degree, but back then it was a mystery to me how he did that.

Jonathan 01-31-2013 01:06 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
When I teach ryotedori kokyu dosa to my students, I remind them not to be passive when they extend their arms out for uke to grab. They must have strong projecting intent as they raise their arms and not wait until uke has grabbed on to begin to do so. When they do project this way, uke is lifted upward the instant he grips nage's arms. It is surprising how significant a difference this extension of intent can make to the interaction between uke and nage! To the onlooker, an extending nage appears to be doing nothing different from what a nage without extending intent is doing, but the result of their efforts is very different. And I find that projecting with intent before uke touches diminishes the need for precise arm and hand maneuvering. If the projection is done right, uke seems almost to throw himself.

Janet Rosen 01-31-2013 02:07 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Because I don't sit in seiza, I have to do kokyudosa sitting crosslegged. I'm in effect pinned in place - and this has forced me to attune into the difference between "moving my hips" and "moving my center" - working with lessons from a variety of instructors, finding a way with intent to drop, turn and move my center without my body moving in space - in order to float my partner.
This remains very much a work in progress in that I still cannot do this reliably and consistently. With a partner who is interested in this kind of training, who is trying to connect to affect my center rather than clamp down on my arms, it is easier for me to work on it and be successful. With a partner who is clamping down, depending on how we are working together I may play continue to play with this method and just see if I can at least get a little float, then smile and assume the role of uke, or if it seems s/he has no patience for my "games" I just do the more mechanical extension version.

ChrisHein 01-31-2013 02:37 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Jaemin Yu wrote: (Post 322946)
I'm sorry to keep on asking questions. But how do you drive them up? Once you drive them up, you are under him. But I don't get it how you can reach the state. Thanks!

When he grabs you, in essence you become one structure. You feel through that structure, find the spot you can raise him up with (usually his shoulders will lock) and move that up.

ChrisHein 01-31-2013 02:41 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 322958)

When I am referring to floating, you don't need to physically change the difference in height between you and your partner to be under them. You want to redirect their force down to make your partner go up. I discussed part of one way to do this with my shoulder video post.

I think your confusing imagery with what is actually happening. If you are not actually below them, in some way, you are not horizontally more stable then they are. Nature rule Hunter san, not mine :) . When you are feeling with your intent, what you are actually doing is finding a "sticking" point in their body, then you drive under that sticking point, from a lower position. Because their whole body is connected, once you find a spot to raise them up, their feet will go as well.

Jeremy Hulley 01-31-2013 03:28 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 322976)
I think your confusing imagery with what is actually happening.

Hey Chris,
I believe you have hit on the heart of the disagreement.

HL1978 01-31-2013 03:29 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 322976)
I think your confusing imagery with what is actually happening. If you are not actually below them, in some way, you are not horizontally more stable then they are. Nature rule Hunter san, not mine :) . When you are feeling with your intent, what you are actually doing is finding a "sticking" point in their body, then you drive under that sticking point, from a lower position. Because their whole body is connected, once you find a spot to raise them up, their feet will go as well.

Actually, finding a sticking point isn't required, nor do you need to get physically lower to ever get under anyone.

Here is a relatively simple exercise, that most people reading this should be able to figure out within a few reps. This is of course not the whole story, but relates to the shoulder stuff I talked about earlier and is only a portion of how I would execute kokyu dosa/kokyu ho. This is still a "muscly" way to do the exercise, but will develop some other things. For this super simplified version, don't use the lower torso musculature, hips or legs at all to push back, other than to keep your weight going straight down. I don't want any "additives" of any kind to complicate things.

You are going to start off in a standing position as it is easier to do than from seiza. Stand with your feet parallel and arms at your side. You can either have a partner grab both wrists or one much like they would in seiza. Extend your arm downwards without physically dropping or bending over. If you keep on extending downwards, like you are projecting your elbow downwards, you will find that your arm will eventually not be able to go any further down, but starts to rise with the shoulders remaining down. Your partner will begin to pop upwards and backwards and neither they nor you will feel any resistance. You don't want to fall forwards as your partner's weight goes out and back.

No explosion of power is required, in fact you can do this very slowly whether standing or in seiza and you won't feel any resistance.

You do the exact same thing in kokyu dosa, but its a bit more challenging because the arm is bent. This is why you project it out from the elbow and the position of the forearm/wrist becomes largely irrelevant assuming you know how to connect the shoulder to the body (which I haven't discussed at all).

Whats going on here? Well, by taking their weight/push and having it go downwards (and adding to it a bit), the resultant force goes upwards. From your partners perspective, you are pushing from underneath them, even though physically your body has not dropped at all. You don't find a sticking point at all, you are merely adding their weight/energy to your own and thus creating aiki.

Someone might say, "but Hunter, didn't you say, for internals you don't want to do the whole, you push, I pull thing?" Well, first of all, the way I discussed above was more of a muscle based version, I'm fairly confident that others reading this know how to do the same thing. This isn't dantien driven movement, however you are using your partners weight to cause them to move themselves.

More importantly, I said you want to keep your weight at all times pointed straight down. Forcing my partners weight down by integrating it within me does exactly that. Further you maintain that, by keeping yourself from being "pulled" forwards (as in off balanced in a forwards direction) as your partner moves away from you.

asiawide 01-31-2013 03:44 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 322975)
When he grabs you, in essence you become one structure. You feel through that structure, find the spot you can raise him up with (usually his shoulders will lock) and move that up.

Thanks for the answer. By the way, what's the structure? Is it also a kind of alignment? Could you describe the structure? And where is the spot that you can rais uke? Thanks in advance!

ChrisHein 01-31-2013 03:54 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 322980)
, nor do you need to get physically lower to ever get under anyone.

How are you under someone without being physically lower then them? If you're not physically lower then someone you can't be under them. You could be next to them, or over them, but not under them. The word 'under' denotes being lower, specifically lower with them over you- under. I don't understand how you can do other wise. It might not seem like you are lower then them, but if you are under them, you have to be lower then they are. If not, we shouldn't say that we are under them.

Quote:

Whats going on here? Well, by taking their weight/push and having it go downwards (and adding to it a bit), the resultant force goes upwards. From your partners perspective, you are pushing from underneath them, even though physically your body has not dropped at all. You don't find a sticking point at all, you are merely adding their weight/energy to your own and thus creating aiki.
I don't think that is what is happening. You are driving low, and whether you realize it or not, if they are not also driving down, you will find a spot where you are under them. I often find this spot in the shoulders, sometimes it's in their elbows or even in their wrists. This point will be a point they don't want to move (it's a sticking point). If you push into that point where they are locked up, like a wedge, you will drive them up. Once that part moves up, their center will move up also, then you can drive them away. Your physical body wont drop, theirs will raise. I wouldn't call this aiki, but I understand why some would.

If you don't find a "sticking point" why do they move? If there was not a point where they were locked up, their arms would just move and their body would be unaffected. It's only when you find this sticking point, the part where moving their hands moves their body, and get under that sticking point that you can actually move them away from you.

Quote:

Someone might say, "but Hunter, didn't you say, for internals you don't want to do the whole, you push, I pull thing?" Well, first of all, the way I discussed above was more of a muscle based version, I'm fairly confident that others reading this know how to do the same thing. This isn't dantien driven movement, however you are using your partners weight to cause them to move themselves.
I can't see how something could not be a "muscle based thing". If it's not muscle making the motion happen, what is making it happen?

ChrisHein 01-31-2013 04:04 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Jaemin Yu wrote: (Post 322981)
Thanks for the answer. By the way, what's the structure? Is it also a kind of alignment? Could you describe the structure? And where is the spot that you can rais uke? Thanks in advance!

When someone grabs ahold of you, the two of you begin to share a structure, you become like one larger thing because you are connected by the grab. When you feel through this unified structure (you and them) you will find a point where they will be locked up, you can use this locked up nature to connect to their core. For example, if you are grabbing me, and totally floppy in your elbow joint I can't move your core, because at the elbow joint you are keeping me from connecting to your center, so I'll try and lock it out, once I lock this spot out, I can get under the locked area, and move it, this will also move your core (because they are all connected). I can raise you with this.

Demetrio Cereijo 01-31-2013 04:41 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Let me add that if uke applies force, by the magic of Newton's third law, he is making himself easier to lift.

HL1978 02-01-2013 06:47 AM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 322954)

Beyond those two examples, I think any technique where you end up, either on purpose or by accident coming up against uke's force or weight, the difference is pretty noticeable as you don't get pinned down or off balanced as easily.

Thanks, I think that is very helpful for others to read.

HL1978 02-01-2013 12:04 PM

Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 322982)
How are you under someone without being physically lower then them? If you're not physically lower then someone you can't be under them. You could be next to them, or over them, but not under them. The word 'under' denotes being lower, specifically lower with them over you- under. I don't understand how you can do other wise. It might not seem like you are lower then them, but if you are under them, you have to be lower then they are. If not, we shouldn't say that we are under them.

Being under someone is a common term when discussing internals. Its internal 101 really, and discussed pretty early on in most of the IS seminars I have attended. If one has IS experience, they should know what exactly it is a reference too.

For the clarification for those new to the subject, it refers to a force coming up from underneath the other person, and is typically used in reference various phenomena which can result such as floating etc. If we go purely by physical stature or utilizing structure, then I can never physically get under a 4'9" woman without physically dropping my body lower than hers. That is to say given conventional usage of the body, I could never overcome her innate advantage of having her hips lower to the ground, all other things being equal such as technique, timing, power and equal weight/muscle mass.

Luckily, for me you can get under someone and there are multiple other ways of doing it. You can try and source power from a point lower than them (this only works against less skilled person), but that fails when you realize you can't get any lower than the feet (and its not really internal). The better way is to integrate your weight with the other person and their input force (and add to it rather than go against it), cause it to reflect off the ground ala Newton's 3rd law. The resultant force comes from underneath the other person, not requiring your hips to be lower than theirs. Thus you are under them. You need to be "under" yourself too, to make that work, but that idea will probably confuse too many people right now.

Quote:

I don't think that is what is happening. You are driving low, and whether you realize it or not, if they are not also driving down, you will find a spot where you are under them. I often find this spot in the shoulders, sometimes it's in their elbows or even in their wrists. This point will be a point they don't want to move (it's a sticking point). If you push into that point where they are locked up, like a wedge, you will drive them up. Once that part moves up, their center will move up also, then you can drive them away. Your physical body wont drop, theirs will raise. I wouldn't call this aiki, but I understand why some would.
Could you clarify why you don't see this as aiki? There is a mixing of your weight/energy and your opponents which you put back on out into your opponent.

If you do the simple exercise I'm referring to, you won't feel a lock up point, though it certainly may be visible. You shouldn't feel any resistance of any kind.

Quote:

If you don't find a "sticking point" why do they move? If there was not a point where they were locked up, their arms would just move and their body would be unaffected. It's only when you find this sticking point, the part where moving their hands moves their body, and get under that sticking point that you can actually move them away from you.
You don't need to find a sticking point, though it is certainly helpful and your partner's movement is certainly far more dramatic. Of course with a more and more experienced person, they won't present such a point or at least far less often and without being a limp noodle. What you really need to do, is bring that energy/force to the point of contact that they have maintained with you. You will still get movement, even if the other person is like a limp noodle as that limb is still connected through the support structures of the body to the torso.

Quote:

I can't see how something could not be a "muscle based thing". If it's not muscle making the motion happen, what is making it happen?
If I only use what you give me, and only use whatever muscle I need to hold myself up, I'm not relying on muscular power. Rather, I would be relying on your muscular power. Remember this drawing?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...8&d=1359493547

The blue line is the input force from your partner, and the purple force (in reality, it more or less follows both the blue and red lines back up as some goes into the rear foot) is what pushes back up on an angle. The internal way to do kokyu-ho/dosa relies much more on this than the elbow example I gave. Your arms will extend forwards, not to push your partner, but rather to maintain the connection with the partner. If you start to push with them to add to it, the resultant force winds up being less.


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