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Leonaiki 01-19-2013 04:15 AM

Other suburi than Iwama
 
Hi All...

Everyone, well many I should say - at east their existence- know Saito sensei's ken suburi.

But I have a few questions:

- are there any other suburi in "traditional" koryu?
- is the very word suburi used in other MA or koryu
- can we see them somewhere if they exist?

With many thanks for your answers...

:)

L

Ethan Weisgard 01-20-2013 04:36 AM

Re: Other suburi than Iwama
 
Hello Leon,

Suburi means practice swing or strike in Japanese. You use the word in Japanese for any kind of instrument that is wielded in this manner. The word is used in martial arts that include weapons forms where you do repeated exercises with them in order to better your form. In sports such as golf and baseball you also practice "suburi."

If you google tissier + suburi you will find Tissier Sensei's version of bokken suburi. This is just one example of many, where you will find the movements are different from the Iwama suburi. Of course there will always be elements that are the same, but you will find that the suburi of the given style are structured so they enhance the unique forms and usage of the ken as applied in this style.

In aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Leonaiki 01-20-2013 02:25 PM

Re: Other suburi than Iwama
 
Hi Ethan,

thanks, I know the meaning of suburi and I have done loads so that the meaning is now completely metabolized:D .
I couldn't find relevant docs or videos on the net that's why I asked here. I was wondering if suburi - as a repetition - is part of traditional training outside Aikido and under which forms...
Still looking...:o

Best
L

Cliff Judge 01-20-2013 07:16 PM

Re: Other suburi than Iwama
 
Systematized suburi practice is present in some but not all koryu kenjutsu, though I don't think there are any systems that do nearly as much as Saito Sensei's or other Aikido suburi systems.

Ono-ha Itto ryu, when I saw them train a couple years ago, would practice their standard kamae, and then do a simple series of straight cuts from their In and Yo kamae, which are essentially right and left hasso.

I have seen a type of suburi practice from, I believe, Muto ryu, where the sword is raised to jodan and a deep breath is drawn in and packed down into the hara. A deep, long-reaching cut is made and the swordsman fully exhales...then, when there is absolutely no air in the lungs, the swordsman exhales a bit more.

Probably one of the most interesting I have seen is that in Jiki Shinkage ryu, where it is sufficiently integrated into their training that they demonstrate it at embu. Also, they apparently like to use the entire tree as a suburito, which is called a furibo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlyTVTXa8Ng

Sokaku Takeda practiced Jiki Shinkage ryu and brought this type of suburi into Daito ryu. Thanks to Chris Li we can see that Sagawa enjoyed this type of suburi.

(I am not actually sure that this is called "suburi" in Jiki Shinkage ryu.)

sorokod 01-21-2013 09:50 AM

Re: Other suburi than Iwama
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 322334)

Probably one of the most interesting I have seen is that in Jiki Shinkage ryu, where it is sufficiently integrated into their training that they demonstrate it at embu. Also, they apparently like to use the entire tree as a suburito, which is called a furibo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlyTVTXa8Ng

Very very nice..

Alex Megann 01-21-2013 10:05 AM

Re: Other suburi than Iwama
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 322334)
Probably one of the most interesting I have seen is that in Jiki Shinkage ryu, where it is sufficiently integrated into their training that they demonstrate it at embu. Also, they apparently like to use the entire tree as a suburito, which is called a furibo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlyTVTXa8Ng

Sokaku Takeda practiced Jiki Shinkage ryu and brought this type of suburi into Daito ryu. Thanks to Chris Li we can see that Sagawa enjoyed this type of suburi.

(I am not actually sure that this is called "suburi" in Jiki Shinkage ryu.)

I remember Ikeda (Masatomi) and Hosokawa Senseis demonstrating forms from this style, which seemed to put a lot of emphasis on the breath. Very different from the swordwork I was used to (at that time mainly Saito-style suburi and the kesagiri from Kashima Shinryu), but very nice to watch. Ikeda and Hosokawa were both students of Tada Sensei, though I don't know if the latter specifically studied Jiki Shinkage Ryu.

I didn't realise that Sokaku Takeda had a connection with this school.

Alex

Ellis Amdur 01-21-2013 11:31 AM

Re: Other suburi than Iwama
 
Takeda Sokaku spoke about this connection, and Takeda Tokimune writes quite a bit about it (see Aikido Journal). It's almost surely true. FWIW, there is, however, no independent record or recollection of this within Jikishinkage-ryu, whose enrollment in those days was quite large. In Tokimune's writing, Sokaku is described as a very significant member of the school, during his period of enrollment. It's possible that he was there, but not nearly so prominent as his son describes.

Similarly, Wang Shu Chin claimed to be a student of Chang Chao-Tung, one of the greatest of bagua instructors. He was not recalled, however, as an indoor student - rather, it is more likely that he just attended Chang's classes as part of the "crowd."

Ellis Amdur

oisin bourke 01-21-2013 12:40 PM

Re: Other suburi than Iwama
 
Quote:

Alex Megann wrote: (Post 322368)
I remember Ikeda (Masatomi) and Hosokawa Senseis demonstrating forms from this style, which seemed to put a lot of emphasis on the breath. Very different from the swordwork I was used to (at that time mainly Saito-style suburi and the kesagiri from Kashima Shinryu), but very nice to watch. Ikeda and Hosokawa were both students of Tada Sensei, though I don't know if the latter specifically studied Jiki Shinkage Ryu.

I didn't realise that Sokaku Takeda had a connection with this school.

Alex

That is really interesting, Alex. I've attended classes with people who trained with Ikeda, and the breathing excercises they do really seemed familiar but I couldn't place from where. Your post helped me recall a demo I witnessed in Japan at a zen gasshuku of jikishinkage ryu (there is historical connection between the rinzai school of zen and jikishinkage ryu via Tesshu Yamaoka).

The demonstrators did a lot of these breathing techniques and some kata, none of the suburi though. I also demonstrated daito ryu at the gasshuku.

Personally, I couldn't see a huge connection between Daito ryu and Jikishinkage ryu. The breathing techniques struck me as being more akin to goju ryu style karate, and even some sumo conditioning exercises..

I"m no expert in this ryu at all, but the demonstrators in your video looked very different to the demo I witnessed. The way they used their feet was completely different.
FWIW.

Oh, I believe, Ishida Kazusoto, who was a chief justice in Japan and close friend of both Horikawa Kodo and Shioda Gozo, was ranked in this ryu (He definately was ranked in a style of itto ryu)

As a personal observation, I was always told that daito ryu and itto ryu were closely related. I actually think daito ryu and tatsumi ryu have a lot of similarities (to my eyes). However, I have never trained in a sword ryu. There is enough to learn about grabbing before moving on to stabbing :)

Cliff Judge 01-22-2013 08:24 AM

Re: Other suburi than Iwama
 
Quote:

Oisin Bourke wrote: (Post 322375)
As a personal observation, I was always told that daito ryu and itto ryu were closely related. I actually think daito ryu and tatsumi ryu have a lot of similarities (to my eyes). However, I have never trained in a sword ryu. There is enough to learn about grabbing before moving on to stabbing :)

Sokaku Takeda was actually licensed in Ono-ha Itto ryu, and there is a line of Itto ryu that is transmitted through some Daito ryu groups which is not, I think, recognized by the Soke of Ono-ha Itto ryu. This is a stronger connection than the one to Jikishinkage ryu. But Jikishinkage ryu is somewhat unique in that it has preserved a vastly stronger emphasis on building power and stability before teaching sophisticated bladework than other existing schools. I think that is why you see the suburi practiced in Daito ryu today...it is a respected way to develop power.

I haven't seen enough of Tatsumi ryu to notice any similarities. There are plenty of things in koryu that resemble other things in koryu with which they have absolutely no connection, in my experience, so beware. :)

inframan 01-25-2013 09:08 AM

Re: Other suburi than Iwama
 
Seidokan suburi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOtJr...F7B7FB074D0E2B


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