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-   -   A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Development (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22156)

Demetrio Cereijo 01-10-2013 03:10 AM

A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Development
 
Shishida Fumiaki article about Kano's interest on Kendo.

Quote:

Abstract:
Kano stated that in the future judo should combine with kendo to become one while he touched upon the necessity of studying kendo and the relationships between judo and kendo, and he also often mentioned that his vision of ideal judo was present in the randori practices during the early years of the Kodokan. These remarkable statements would not have been special for Kano but will be unexpected for present judokas who practice a competitive judo as a sport. Why they have a problem to understand it is that Kano thought judo over as practical martial art as well as physical education and a sport event. Kano's ideal judo had not completed during his lifetime but that theme was succeeded by Professor Tomiki. Tomiki defined the kendo principle as the "technical theory of chop and thrust while avoiding touching", and clearly advanced Kano's idea. Tomiki improved the explanation of atemi-waza through his analysis of the Koshiki-no-kata. Tomiki analyzed each form of Koshiki-no-kata through the study of the relationship between "toughing" and atemi-waza. Kano encouraged judokas to practice "Seiryoku-zenyo-kokumin-taiiku", which would be influenced by karate in Okinawa. Tomiki systematized Kano's idea through emphasizing that judo practitioners should practice techniques of chop and thrust based on the principle of the throwing technique, because Tomiki thought that there was a structural difference between karate judo and karate.
Link: http://www.archbudo.com/abstracted.p...=5&icid=883619

sorokod 01-10-2013 07:34 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
I think the in the olden days (pre WWII) a Kendoka was allowed to continue the match without the shinai, emty handed.

HL1978 01-10-2013 08:13 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 321785)
I think the in the olden days (pre WWII) a Kendoka was allowed to continue the match without the shinai, emty handed.

Yes, pre-war kendo allowed for all sorts of things that are no longer considered "proper" kendo, though foot sweeps are still permissible in some police tournaments. This is in part because the shinai kyogi faction won out in the end after the war after it merged with the ZNKR in 1954, and written laments of teachers in the 50's and 60's who stated that kendo lost its way.

http://kenshi247.net/blog/2012/02/02/shinai-kyogi/
http://www.auskf.info/main/articles.htm

People tend to focus on the grappling aspects of pre-war kendo such as choking out aite with a do, or ripping off the men, but seem unaware that were whole sets of waza which were more or less discarded.

Getting back to the original topic, you will find a number of pre-war teachers who state that kendo and judo were two sides to the same coin.

ChrisHein 01-10-2013 11:13 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
This is very interesting to me. We did lot's of bokken sparring this summer. We wrestled and used bokken to hit each other, it was very fun and very revealing. Lot's of classical Jujutsu/Aikido techniques would pop up, it was a joy to see!

More experimentation needs to be done in this area!

sorokod 01-11-2013 10:46 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

March 5, 1950, the Zen Nippon Kyogi Renmei (All Japan Kendo Federation) was established. Almost immediately the name was changed to Zen Nippon Shinai Kyogi Renmei (All Japan Pliant Competition Federation). In obtaining the initial permission to start practicing "shinai kyogi" several items permitted under rules of prewar kendo were specifically banned by the Occupation: ashi-barai, tai-atari, grappling when the shinai was dropped, and kiai (loud shouts).
http://www.auskf.info/main/articles.htm

Perhaps this is also the origin of no-kiai in Aikikai and Ki Aikido?

Demetrio Cereijo 01-11-2013 10:57 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 321855)
Perhaps this is also the origin of no-kiai in Aikikai and Ki Aikido?

Probably.

More about the "Budo Ban" in post-war Japan:http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1202.htm

HL1978 01-11-2013 02:49 PM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 321802)
This is very interesting to me. We did lot's of bokken sparring this summer. We wrestled and used bokken to hit each other, it was very fun and very revealing. Lot's of classical Jujutsu/Aikido techniques would pop up, it was a joy to see!

More experimentation needs to be done in this area!

I've engaged in this sort of thing with people who have trained in police dojos. It is a ton of fun and adds an entirely different element to practice, some of which is lacking in kendo.

Haga style kendo, of which you can find a bunch of videos on youtube shows some of what is like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVnK1Sw7HuI

Many modern kendoka gasp in horror when they see videos like that as it isn't idealized clean technique, but seem to fail to grasp that it is mostly when you remove the ability to perform "rough" techniques, you wind up with refined, unchaotic matches. Keeping those elements in play make it difficult to have "refined" matches unless you are at a really high level.

Its like watching point karate vs MMA.

On the otherhand, the restrictive ruleset does allow for easier practice and development of understanding seme and developing kizeme.

Pat Togher 01-11-2013 02:56 PM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Thanks for the links. Sounds very interesting!
Is there much film footage of this early kendo?

Pat

HL1978 01-11-2013 03:11 PM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

Pat Togher wrote: (Post 321866)
Thanks for the links. Sounds very interesting!
Is there much film footage of this early kendo?

Pat

You can find it in a number of places. Search pre-war kendo on youtube, or go on kendo-world.com to the media section and you may find more links there.

ChrisHein 01-11-2013 03:44 PM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 321865)
Haga style kendo, of which you can find a bunch of videos on youtube shows some of what is like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVnK1Sw7HuI

Thanks for the clip, I haven't seen that before! Looks like my kind of Kendo!

Pat Togher 01-11-2013 05:48 PM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 321868)
You can find it in a number of places. Search pre-war kendo on youtube, or go on kendo-world.com to the media section and you may find more links there.

Hunter,
Just noticed your previous post with the youtube link as well.
Thanks!

Pat

sorokod 01-12-2013 05:22 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 321865)
I've engaged in this sort of thing with people who have trained in police dojos. It is a ton of fun and adds an entirely different element to practice, some of which is lacking in kendo.

Haga style kendo, of which you can find a bunch of videos on youtube shows some of what is like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVnK1Sw7HuI

Many modern kendoka gasp in horror when they see videos like that as it isn't idealized clean technique, but seem to fail to grasp that it is mostly when you remove the ability to perform "rough" techniques, you wind up with refined, unchaotic matches. Keeping those elements in play make it difficult to have "refined" matches unless you are at a really high level.

Its like watching point karate vs MMA.

On the otherhand, the restrictive ruleset does allow for easier practice and development of understanding seme and developing kizeme.

Very likely that when Kano was thinking Kendo, this is the kind of Kendo he was thinking about.

Demetrio Cereijo 01-12-2013 10:26 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
The first kendo motion picture - from 1897: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN9SDF05nX0

ChrisHein 01-12-2013 11:40 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Two things.

1. Fighting with swords, turns into Kumi uchi, fall down in front of the guys in front of you, then they hit you with swords. GREAT!

2. Crazy guy running around with a Kasari Gama, PERFECT!

lars beyer 01-12-2013 12:07 PM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 321892)
The first kendo motion picture - from 1897: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN9SDF05nX0

I like the guy in the background doing tanren, and the guy drinking something.. as well as the old guy stairs on top of the stairs on the right laughing.. itīs a VERY crowded piece of footage for sure..
:-D

Demetrio Cereijo 01-12-2013 01:15 PM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Hi Lars,

I think the guy is not drinking but blowing a horagai.

lars beyer 01-12-2013 03:41 PM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 321899)
Hi Lars,

I think the guy is not drinking but blowing a horagai.

Hi Demetrio,
Ok.. anyway nice clip, thanks !
:-D

niall 01-14-2013 09:30 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Thanks Demetrio, you are very good at finding links to great sources. I thought this quote on page 227 was very interesting:

Quote:

According to Tomiki's own words to this author, he learned Yagyu Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu from Kosaburo Gejo with Morihei Ueshiba in his youth. This includes the techniques and concepts of
"Muto-dori", or the methods of defeating an armed opponent while unarmed.

Demetrio Cereijo 01-14-2013 11:04 AM

Re: A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano's Ideas and Their Theoretical Develop
 
Quote:

Niall Matthews wrote: (Post 321983)
Thanks Demetrio, you are very good at finding links to great sources. I thought this quote on page 227 was very interesting:

Hi Niall,

There's more about this relation to Yagyu-shinkage-ryu in "The Process of Forming Aikido and Japanese Imperial Navy Admiral Isamu Takeshita: Through the analysis of Takeshita's diary from 1925 to 1931", also by Shishida.


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