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DH 12-18-2012 02:18 AM

A Ueshiba launch
 
What... would launch a man off of his feet with little perceptible movement?
Why was power so much of Ueshiba's demonstrations, and why is it totally lost on this generation; both in actual ability and in the understanding of why it was there in the first place- to the point that they argue against the teachings of their own founders training- designed and known for producing, power?
Dan

robin_jet_alt 12-18-2012 04:17 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
I don't know. Let me know if you are ever in Australia, Dan. I'd love to find out.

Chris Li 12-18-2012 10:04 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
The video is here, at around 7:14.

Typical Ueshiba, it seems to me, a whiff of...and then figure it out yourself - got to keep your eyes open! :)

Best,

Chris

NekVTAikido 12-18-2012 08:19 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
In the video, It looks to me like he jumped.

Chris Li 12-18-2012 08:50 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Gordon Young wrote: (Post 320717)
In the video, It looks to me like he jumped.

Could be (if we're talking about a regular everyday jump) - but it would be out of context for the other things he's doing..why jump?

Best,

Chris

Brian Beach 12-18-2012 11:24 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Gordon Young wrote: (Post 320717)
In the video, It looks to me like he jumped.

Looks to me as if he he snapping his hips into place, a place that is higher than where he started, so there is a vertical transfer...but I've never studied any IP just Aikido :)

Michael Varin 12-19-2012 12:30 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
With "little perceptible movement"? :confused:

There was a whole lot of perceptible movement.

I wonder if Dan watched the video before commenting? And if so, what exactly he was seeing (or not seeing)?

By the way, why is Stan Pranin trying to act like no one has ever seen that movie? He's been selling it for well over a decade!

I've watched it many times.

Tengu859 12-19-2012 07:40 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Michael Varin wrote: (Post 320722)
With "little perceptible movement"? :confused:

There was a whole lot of perceptible movement.

I wonder if Dan watched the video before commenting? And if so, what exactly he was seeing (or not seeing)?

By the way, why is Stan Pranin trying to act like no one has ever seen that movie? He's been selling it for well over a decade!

I've watched it many times.

Hello,

I'm always suprised at the number of people who have started training in the Aiki arts and have no idea of it's rich and colorful history...and I think Stanley Pranin has been selling those videos for more like twenty years(thanks SP)...!!!

As far as a whole lot of perceptible movement...what's your take on it? It may be that he is doing this exercise as part of his junbi undo to show the students a way of movement that can be done in a more subtle way during actual training...There must be method behind Ueshiba Sensei movements, not just some crazy old wizard stuff...Otherwise why didn't he just ride an exercise bike as part of his junbi undo?

Take Care,

ChrisW

PS I would have loved to see Ueshiba on an exercise bike!!! :0)

MM 12-19-2012 10:56 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
There were a number of questions that sprang to mind when I watched the video.

1. What did Ueshiba call this exercise?
Like "aiki age", "aiki sage", "asagao", etc, all those names actually meant something specific in training. Doesn't mean there is a name for this exercise. I was just curious.

2. Why isn't this exercise in modern training? If it is, where?
Some exercises were passed down. furitama, funekogi undo, tai no henko, etc. What happened to this one?

3. What other exercises didn't get passed along?
I'm sure there are some. What were they?

4. Why did Ueshiba pop off his feet in the first one, but then not do so again?
Did he just want to do something different for the first time to show the capability? Did he do it on accident, then realize the camera was rolling, and settle down?

5. How did Ueshiba pop off his feet?
My guess:
1: Structure. The body has to be rebuilt so that it works as one unit and there is little to no slack.
2: Intent. It has to be developed such that it can be used to rebuild the body.
3: Dantien. It must be developed such that it can freely move and has an expanded range of motion.
4. Use 1-3 together. Use intent to move dantien in a connected body in a specific manner.

Mark

Rob Watson 12-20-2012 01:51 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
This weekend (Sept 17, 2011) at ADV (Aikido of Diablo Valley) seminar Dan did something that I think is a really compelling display that cannot easily be explained except by pure internal abilitiy. If ever a youtube of Dan doing anything gets posted this is the bit that should be there. Seeing that tidbit and trying to explain or replicate it can only lead to one solution. Maybe even cover art (or inside flap) for the book?

Sitting in seiza suddenly propelling forward through the air ~2 feet with no external movement (if there was any it was not obvious).

I think only me and one other person were watching when it happened ... I thought it was freaking awesome. Goofy - but awesome.

My physicist brain tries to explain things in simple mechanical terms some times ... Imagine a box. Inside the box is a bowling ball on a compressed spring. Imagine the box sitting on the ground with the spring pointing down (compressed upwards). Suddenly the spring is allowed to uncompress and drives the ball towards the ground. The box now 'magically' jumps off the ground and zero force is felt by the ground. Conservation of momentum makes this happen.

Now find how to do that with back bow, dantian, etc while sitting in seiza or standing.

lars beyer 12-20-2012 02:20 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: (Post 320771)
This weekend (Sept 17, 2011) at ADV (Aikido of Diablo Valley) seminar Dan did something that I think is a really compelling display that cannot easily be explained except by pure internal abilitiy. If ever a youtube of Dan doing anything gets posted this is the bit that should be there. Seeing that tidbit and trying to explain or replicate it can only lead to one solution. Maybe even cover art (or inside flap) for the book?

Sitting in seiza suddenly propelling forward through the air ~2 feet with no external movement (if there was any it was not obvious).

I think only me and one other person were watching when it happened ... I thought it was freaking awesome. Goofy - but awesome.

My physicist brain tries to explain things in simple mechanical terms some times ... Imagine a box. Inside the box is a bowling ball on a compressed spring. Imagine the box sitting on the ground with the spring pointing down (compressed upwards). Suddenly the spring is allowed to uncompress and drives the ball towards the ground. The box now 'magically' jumps off the ground and zero force is felt by the ground. Conservation of momentum makes this happen.

Now find how to do that with back bow, dantian, etc while sitting in seiza or standing.

Were living in the age of social media- so deal with it like everybody else and show me the money instead of just talking about it, please.
Respectfully yours,
Lars

Chris Li 12-20-2012 02:29 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Lars Beyer wrote: (Post 320773)
Were living in the age of social media- so deal with it like everybody else and show me the money instead of just talking about it, please.
Respectfully yours,
Lars

Not real if it's not on the internet? :D

FWIW, I've seen Dan demonstrate that more than once, but no video - and no plans to put up a video. However, he's fairly accessible, and you can probably talk him into demonstrating it again.

Best,

Chris

lars beyer 12-20-2012 03:01 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 320774)
Not real if it's not on the internet? :D

FWIW, I've seen Dan demonstrate that more than once, but no video - and no plans to put up a video. However, he's fairly accessible, and you can probably talk him into demonstrating it again.

Best,

Chris

I didn´t.
Maybe time for you guys to readjust your tactics in relation to social media.
Just saying- fwiw.
Cheers
Lars

Chris Li 12-20-2012 03:16 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Lars Beyer wrote: (Post 320775)
I didn�t.
Maybe time for you guys to readjust your tactics in relation to social media.
Just saying- fwiw.
Cheers
Lars

There aren't really any "you guys" (I've never met Rob in my life) and there really aren't any "tactics", but I've said it before, and I'll say it again - video's not really that useful.

We've already got plenty of video of Ueshiba, if video worked that well then everybody would be able to do and/or understand what he was doing already.

Best,

Chris

renshin 12-20-2012 03:27 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Lars Beyer wrote: (Post 320775)
I didn´t.
Maybe time for you guys to readjust your tactics in relation to social media.

Tactics?

FWIW, I don't really think you would get much from seeing this on video. As mentioned, the things that make this happen are internal. BTW, Dan made a decision a long time ago not to publish any videos. Hands on experience is what matters. I was sceptical too. So I went to see him. Now I don't doubt at all that what he's doing and teaching is the real deal. It changed my view of Aikido entirely.

As Chris said: There are plenty of opportunities to see Dan if you're interested in seeing what he's doing and learning something that a lot of people find to be fun, addictive and incredibly potent. He's coming to NL in April.

lars beyer 12-20-2012 03:29 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 320777)
There aren't really any "you guys" (I've never met Rob in my life) and there really aren't any "tactics", but I've said it before, and I'll say it again - video's not really that useful.

We've already got plenty of video of Ueshiba, if video worked that well then everybody would be able to do and/or understand what he was doing already.

Best,

Chris

I wasn´t speaking about Rob and you know it.
It seems you allready know, partly assisted by the films of O´sensei I guess.
In my view we have very few video´s of O´sensei available today.
Films are no more accurate than words in the sence we most often only see what
we are looking for and allready know in advance.
It takes thorough study to watch a film and understand what is actually presenting itself, or read a book for that matter. In that sence films and words are similar in the sence they rely on language.

Respect and regards
Lars

Chris Li 12-20-2012 05:34 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Lars Beyer wrote: (Post 320779)
I wasn�t speaking about Rob and you know it.
It seems you allready know, partly assisted by the films of O�sensei I guess.
In my view we have very few video�s of O�sensei available today.
Films are no more accurate than words in the sence we most often only see what
we are looking for and allready know in advance.
It takes thorough study to watch a film and understand what is actually presenting itself, or read a book for that matter. In that sence films and words are similar in the sence they rely on language.

Respect and regards
Lars

Well, you replied to Rob, I commented on your reply (to Rob), and then... you replied to me with the reply above, so I don't know how else to interpret it.

Anyway...

Best,

Chris

gnlj 12-20-2012 06:45 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
I have always found this video very interesting. Particularly because the exercises are very similar to those taught by my teacher Tamura sensei. It is complicated because there is no sound and so it is difficult to know if the jump was an integral part of the exercise or an explanation - he only appears to do it the first time.

Rob Watson 12-20-2012 07:13 PM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Lars Beyer wrote: (Post 320773)
Were living in the age of social media- so deal with it like everybody else and show me the money instead of just talking about it, please.
Respectfully yours,
Lars

I suppose ... I mean, even the pope is tweeting. Right?

Mr. Beyer, respectfully, live is better than Memorex, so go to a seminar. Social media is not a surrogate for real in the flesh living.

DH 12-21-2012 08:10 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 320777)
Quote:

Lars Beyer wrote:
Maybe time for you guys to readjust your tactics in relation to social media.
Just saying- fwiw.
Cheers
Lars
There aren't really any "you guys" (I've never met Rob in my life) and there really aren't any "tactics", but I've said it before, and I'll say it again - video's not really that useful.

We've already got plenty of video of Ueshiba, if video worked that well then everybody would be able to do and/or understand what he was doing already.

Best,
Chris

Isn't this the heart of the matter? In the age of instant gratification, "you tube is truth!" and "show me the money"
As you and I have discussed....

We have: The worst budo since budo was probably invented...no living legends, half assed hobbyist...who are instant experts and gad flies on the internet. My producing a video would help no one, but myself. and would only help "market" something I really have no interest in marketing. Contrary to the repeated insults offered here I have no interest in marketing a product.
( Note* none of those insults have ever come from anyone here from a senior level who did enough research behind the scenes to know better)

My real interest is in helping the budo people who want to be helped. And I am doing that all over, week after week. Someone thinking that video will help is ridiculous. Exhaustive hands on training is what will help. Ironically the oft repeated refrain is that many, if not most, people in budo are not legends, are not giants, are not truly exemplary budo-ka. And ladies and gentlemen....that was the result of decades of their lives in hands-on practice doing the wrong things to make budo work.
You expect a video to fix what you could not replicate over decades?

If and when I ever do a video (and we are discussing it) it will be instructional. It will be limited to IP address, single use purchase, and copyrighted, as contrary to another persons internet gossip, my exercises and methods are my own. And it will be designed...to help as best I can, with a video.
Dan

DH 12-21-2012 08:18 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: (Post 320771)
This weekend (Sept 17, 2011) at ADV (Aikido of Diablo Valley) seminar Dan did something that I think is a really compelling display that cannot easily be explained except by pure internal abilitiy. If ever a youtube of Dan doing anything gets posted this is the bit that should be there. Seeing that tidbit and trying to explain or replicate it can only lead to one solution. Maybe even cover art (or inside flap) for the book?

Sitting in seiza suddenly propelling forward through the air ~2 feet with no external movement (if there was any it was not obvious).

I think only me and one other person were watching when it happened ... I thought it was freaking awesome. Goofy - but awesome.

My physicist brain tries to explain things in simple mechanical terms some times ... Imagine a box. Inside the box is a bowling ball on a compressed spring. Imagine the box sitting on the ground with the spring pointing down (compressed upwards). Suddenly the spring is allowed to uncompress and drives the ball towards the ground. The box now 'magically' jumps off the ground and zero force is felt by the ground. Conservation of momentum makes this happen.

Now find how to do that with back bow, dantian, etc while sitting in seiza or standing.

Of course there was a massive amount of movement and tissue displacement that launched me off the floor. Mass times acceleration can produce dramatic forces. You just cannot see the initiation of the change in mass and what propels it. I do the same thing standing and UNLIKE Ueshiba, with my legs and feet locked I pop all of me off of the ground without using the legs and feet. It's using the dantian!

Interestingly Shirata has basic body conditioning models geared for similar results. Learned from who I wonder? :rolleyes:
Dan

Walter Martindale 12-21-2012 09:04 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Ok... so.. do you ever get to Canada, Dan?

Dazzler 12-21-2012 09:16 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Guy N. L. Jameson wrote: (Post 320786)
I have always found this video very interesting. Particularly because the exercises are very similar to those taught by my teacher Tamura sensei. It is complicated because there is no sound and so it is difficult to know if the jump was an integral part of the exercise or an explanation - he only appears to do it the first time.

Agree.

That series of exercises is very reminiscent of Tamura, In my case I practiced them much more with Pierre Chassang....but I've never seen that pop up by Tamura or Pierre, even though I feel Pierre was researching very much in the same area as Dan.

I have seen film of Shioda moving in suwariwaza in a way thats 'abnormal' to my eyes ..like a hovercraft almost......I look forward to finding out if its similar to Dans work that Rob describes.

Dazzler 12-21-2012 09:18 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Walter Martindale wrote: (Post 320798)
Ok... so.. do you ever get to Canada, Dan?

@Dan...I have a friend in Niagara falls Canada side.....I think I could kill 2 birds with one stone if you selected Ontario for a visit

Just say'n :)

Gary David 12-21-2012 09:24 AM

Re: A Ueshiba launch
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 320797)
Of course there was a massive amount of movement and tissue displacement that launched me off the floor. Mass times acceleration can produce dramatic forces. You just cannot see the initiation of the change in mass and what propels it. I do the same thing standing and UNLIKE Ueshiba, with my legs and feet locked I pop all of me off of the ground without using the legs and feet. It's using the dantian!....................

I would just like to add in here that I have seen Dan pop himself up to standing without any apparent pre-movement as well as propel himself 4 or 5 inches off the ground standing stiff legged. The point of these demonstrations was to emphasize the massive amount of tissue displacement that one is capable of if trained for it.......think what is possible behind the hands on strike if trained.

Of course seeing it makes it real, but seeing it doesn't help with the learning of the doing, nor would video unless Dan added in the steps to getting there......... go see him.....he is after all a really nice guy willing to help if ask......

Gary


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