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Chris Li 12-16-2012 06:39 PM

Aiki no Rentai
 
New blog post!

Aiki no Rentai: The Conditioned Body of Yukiyoshi Sagawa, Part 1 - Keisetsu Yoshimaru and "Aikido no Ogi"


Best,

Chris

chillzATL 12-16-2012 08:55 PM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Nice Chris. There was something like this posted on a french (I think it was french!) site and I got it through google translate. It was readable... Is this some of the same stuff? If so, I was wondering a few weeks ago if you'd ever go back to any of that.

Chris Li 12-16-2012 09:11 PM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 320642)
Nice Chris. There was something like this posted on a french (I think it was french!) site and I got it through google translate. It was readable... Is this some of the same stuff? If so, I was wondering a few weeks ago if you'd ever go back to any of that.

Eric translated an article from Hiden into French - that's probably what you're thinking about. Some of the graphics (the Henko and the Furibo) are from that article, the rest is from "Aikido no Ogi".

I have the article in Japanese too, maybe someday...

Best,

Chris

Lorel Latorilla 12-17-2012 05:50 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
クリースさん、
その論文をここに載せてくれる?^^

Chris Knight 12-17-2012 06:22 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Great post Chris

Sorry for being dim, but what is Henko Ashi?

Regards

Chris

Carl Thompson 12-17-2012 06:56 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Dear Chris

When I read this part of the article...

Quote:

The Aiki-age of Sagawa Dojo is like this. Absolutely no bending the wrists, close your armpits, focus your power on the point at which you are grabbed (Aiki is an internal sense, so this is difficult), relax your shoulders and raise your hands up without changing. That's all.
...it reminded me of this from a while back on another thread:

Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 304162)
「手を常に'ゥ顔のように開け」
"Always open your hand like a morning glory ("asagao")"


-Sokaku Takeda

And here's one by Yukiyoshi Sagawa that I think has not generally been made available in English:

8/28/1971
I was told by Takeda Sensei to open my hand in the way that a Morning Glory ("Asagao") blooms, but I think that this means to open the hand while rotating slightly. I conceived of my Aiki while thinking about this kind of thing.

Best,

Chris

And also this photo which is on one of the monuments on Ai Road in former-Iwama:



Carl

Chris Li 12-17-2012 09:20 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Lorel Latorilla wrote: (Post 320646)
繧ッ繝ェ繝シ繧ケ縺輔"縲
縺昴ョ隲----繧'縺"縺"縺ォ霈峨○縺ヲ縺上l繧具シ滂シセシセ

Sent you a PM...

Best,

Chris

Chris Li 12-17-2012 09:27 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 320648)
Dear Chris

When I read this part of the article...

...it reminded me of this from a while back on another thread:

And also this photo which is on one of the monuments on Ai Road in former-Iwama:



Carl

Morihei was pretty rigorous about Asagao, if you watch the old films and pictures. Kisshomaru was too, as far as I recall, although I don't remember him ever mentioning it specifically. Sometimes Kisshomaru would mention "te-gatana" - but people seem to interpret that differently than Asagao.

Saito used to complain about how "some people" held their hands, IIRC.

The background image on www.aikidosangenkai.org is actually a photo of a kimono fabric with....an Asagao pattern. :)

Best,

Chris

phitruong 12-17-2012 09:27 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
the "i" shown up on my computer as "l" which my old going-blind eyes thought the title of the article is "Aiki no Rental". so i thought what sort of artile be in Aiki no Rental. some sort of eviction Aiki? or maybe some sort of landlord slum aiki. definitely new. :)

Chris Li 12-17-2012 09:30 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Chris Knight wrote: (Post 320647)
Great post Chris

Sorry for being dim, but what is Henko Ashi?

Regards

Chris

Basically, tai-no-henko (tenkan) - the version demonstrated in the graphic appears to be similar to the Yoshinkan version of Hiriki-no-yosei-ni, but not nearly as exaggerated (I'm not saying the Yoshinkan version is right or wrong).

Best,

Chris

Chris Li 12-17-2012 09:31 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 320654)
the "i" shown up on my computer as "l" which my old going-blind eyes thought the title of the article is "Aiki no Rental". so i thought what sort of artile be in Aiki no Rental. some sort of eviction Aiki? or maybe some sort of landlord slum aiki. definitely new. :)

Shh, we don't want people figure out that they can get this stuff at Redbox.... :D

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield 12-17-2012 09:16 PM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Thanks for translating, Chris.

It's what the aiki men of yore weren't saying, that I'd love to read, though. :)
Their obfuscation of what they were doing with the rest of their body... the sin of omission and the distraction methods of a prestidigitator when they say... "watch my hands... at no time do they leave my wrists!"

Lorel Latorilla 12-18-2012 02:59 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Thanks for the link Chris! My mailbox is full so and too lazy to delete messages so Ill just thank you here :).

gregstec 12-18-2012 09:22 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 320677)
Thanks for translating, Chris.

It's what the aiki men of yore weren't saying, that I'd love to read, though. :)
Their obfuscation of what they were doing with the rest of their body... the sin of omission and the distraction methods of a prestidigitator when they say... "watch my hands... at no time do they leave my wrists!"

Yes, what is being said in this translation is not the whole story, the core substance that makes aiki work is left out - is this by design or was it just not transmitted to this guy? also, the aiki age description does not jive with what how I understand it to work - I agree with not bending wrist, but the just lift hands part sounds wrong to me - no mention of elbow power here ;)

Greg

Chris Li 12-18-2012 09:49 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 320693)
Yes, what is being said in this translation is not the whole story, the core substance that makes aiki work is left out - is this by design or was it just not transmitted to this guy? also, the aiki age description does not jive with what how I understand it to work - I agree with not bending wrist, but the just lift hands part sounds wrong to me - no mention of elbow power here ;)

Greg

Yes, it's pretty sparse. I wouldn't look for too many specifics, but it gives an interesting (to me) look at their general approach and point of view.

Part of it is that the folks in Sagawa Dojo are pretty closemouthed (the person who made that quote said that himself), and part of it is that the language and terminology don't seem that well developed in many cases.

One of the things that interested me about that first quote is the clear division (but interedependance) between IP (ie "Martial power") and Aiki that was made. Also that, as in the Sagawa quotes, the training is focused on the creation of a certain kind of body.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield 12-18-2012 12:06 PM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Yes, the hints were there - the references to conditioning the body, "strengthening" the hips and legs, and the mention of "Asagao." No details of what these things really mean, nor their significance, role and purpose, and yet they were at least stated.

Carl Thompson 12-20-2012 03:55 PM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 320653)
Morihei was pretty rigorous about Asagao, if you watch the old films and pictures. Kisshomaru was too, as far as I recall, although I don't remember him ever mentioning it specifically. Sometimes Kisshomaru would mention "te-gatana" - but people seem to interpret that differently than Asagao.

Saito used to complain about how "some people" held their hands, IIRC.

The background image on www.aikidosangenkai.org is actually a photo of a kimono fabric with....an Asagao pattern. :)

Best,

Chris

Thanks Chris

What I thought was interesting was the difference: Keeping the hands straight vs. the "slight rotation". Am I right in thinking that while Takeda and Osensei emphasised the "te-no-kaeshi", Sagawa changed it to keeping the hands straight? I notice Akuzawa Sensei of the Aunkai also keeps the hands straight. I haven't found any videos of other IP/Aiki exponents doing the exercise to compare, but it seems that even te sabaki can be viewed as "waza". In other words, could stripping it down be a way of going for "raw" kokyu-ryoku outside of the method of deployment?

NB: Suwari Kokyu-Ho is one of only two "techniques" that Osensei didn't seem to mind having written down in a list of rules as something that should be done in daily practice.

Carl

Chris Li 12-20-2012 04:42 PM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 320780)
Thanks Chris

What I thought was interesting was the difference: Keeping the hands straight vs. the "slight rotation". Am I right in thinking that while Takeda and Osensei emphasised the "te-no-kaeshi", Sagawa changed it to keeping the hands straight? I notice Akuzawa Sensei of the Aunkai also keeps the hands straight. I haven't found any videos of other IP/Aiki exponents doing the exercise to compare, but it seems that even te sabaki can be viewed as "waza". In other words, could stripping it down be a way of going for "raw" kokyu-ryoku outside of the method of deployment?

NB: Suwari Kokyu-Ho is one of only two "techniques" that Osensei didn't seem to mind having written down in a list of rules as something that should be done in daily practice.

Carl

I'm thinking that the quote was talking more about the bending and hooking that goes on with the wrists so often in kokyo-ho rather than anything different from what Takeda or Ueshiba was doing.

I don't know about Ark - but I'll try and remember to ask Rob about it when I see him next month.

Best,

Chris

Carl Thompson 12-21-2012 07:20 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 320781)
I'm thinking that the quote was talking more about the bending and hooking that goes on with the wrists so often in kokyo-ho rather than anything different from what Takeda or Ueshiba was doing.

I don't know about Ark - but I'll try and remember to ask Rob about it when I see him next month.

Best,

Chris

Thanks. Just to clarify: I thought Aiki-age was more or less equivalent to kokyu-ho (suwari or otherwise, solo or paired) . Hence my interest in this:

Quote:

The Aiki-age of Sagawa Dojo is like this. Absolutely no bending the wrists,
So my question was whether Sagawa sensei changed Aiki-age (assuming it is equivalent to Kokyu-ho).

Carl

Chris Li 12-21-2012 09:10 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 320793)
Thanks. Just to clarify: I thought Aiki-age was more or less equivalent to kokyu-ho (suwari or otherwise, solo or paired) . Hence my interest in this:

So my question was whether Sagawa sensei changed Aiki-age (assuming it is equivalent to Kokyu-ho).

Carl

My personal opinion? No - but that's just my impression...

Best,

Chris

DH 12-21-2012 06:26 PM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 320780)
Thanks Chris

What I thought was interesting was the difference: Keeping the hands straight vs. the "slight rotation". Am I right in thinking that while Takeda and Osensei emphasised the "te-no-kaeshi", Sagawa changed it to keeping the hands straight? I notice Akuzawa Sensei of the Aunkai also keeps the hands straight. I haven't found any videos of other IP/Aiki exponents doing the exercise to compare, but it seems that even te sabaki can be viewed as "waza". In other words, could stripping it down be a way of going for "raw" kokyu-ryoku outside of the method of deployment?

NB: Suwari Kokyu-Ho is one of only two "techniques" that Osensei didn't seem to mind having written down in a list of rules as something that should be done in daily practice.

Carl

I keep the hands straight. That said, talking about the hands this way is ridiculous (yes I know some heavy hitters say different. I don't care). All it does is keep you from the real goods-perhaps purposefully.
Turning the hands up or down is totally unnecessary. In fact were we to consider "turning the hands thereare far more important things to be doing!!. This type of turning you are talking about adds nothing to what you are doing internally and externally to create the technique. There are reasons for straight hands -partly having to do within a training model to induce intent and then yin/yang and otherwise mostly having to do with maintaining an unattached mind without any hand motion....yet. The intent is in your whole body, creating a neutral point on-contact that becomes the support from dantian. From the there, all sort of interesting things occur; some of which is internal some of which is external. Hence IP/aiki. You really cannot do effective aiki without IP. It's all just mimiced motion that can produce okay waza, but it is far from being..."it."

More Taiji classics along the same line:
Not the weight of a feather can be added, nor a fly can alight that does not induce rotation. This gives opportunity for yin and yang. This is the comprehension of energy.

Another great admonition is from a taiji grand master. All this talk of aiki, where is yin? Where is yang? How then is there aiki? You cannot retend Dantian. You will be found out.

So, rotation alone simply will not work, and it is hardly the point. Yin yang is the point. Manifesting yin and yang is where you separate the high level people from ...well....everybody else! Utilizing yin and yang is everything. This is what Ueshiba said as well. All the models and all the waza aren't much without yin and yang.
I continue to demonstrate arm movements against a push or grab, that do nothing. Then, I do the exact, same, move and uke is off balance. Then I do it again without yin/yang...nothing...then turn on yin and yang...off balance they go. I just had a Shihan under a Tohei lineage going nuts trying to figure it out. "You did the same thing!! What made the difference?" So I quoted Ueshiba. "Why can you not do these things? Simple. You do not understand Yin and yang!"

Dan

DH 12-21-2012 06:33 PM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 320793)
Thanks. Just to clarify: I thought Aiki-age was more or less equivalent to kokyu-ho (suwari or otherwise, solo or paired) . Hence my interest in this:
Carl

Not really, but to put it plainly;
Aiki-age is a hand turning waza for those who don't know deeper things.
Aiki-age is everything for those who do know deeper things.
I would say the same about the original purpose of Kokyu-ho, but I just haven't met anyone in the art who knows the deeper teaching of kokyu-ho or who can't simply be stopped. I keep hearing about it, I just haven't seen or felt it.
Jamming or stopping people "who do get it" can be quite a difficult task. I stand people back up on their feet from seiza with kokyu ho, but I am not really using my arms to do it. You can copy it with a big muscle movement, but such is the way of people trying to mimic.
Quote:

So my question was whether Sagawa sensei changed Aiki-age (assuming it is equivalent to Kokyu-ho).
Maybe a better question is what did he say in class and what was ...he...actually doing.
Then again what is ...aiki age that could be changed?
What creates aiki-age cannot truly be changed, while the external movement can be altered all over the place to look like many things.
Dan

Carl Thompson 12-22-2012 07:41 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Thanks for the information Dan

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 320822)
I keep the hands straight. That said, talking about the hands this way is ridiculous (yes I know some heavy hitters say different. I don't care). All it does is keep you from the real goods-perhaps purposefully.

So Takeda and Osensei both may have hidden the real goods behind the mere "form" of turning the hands?

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 320823)
Maybe a better question is what did he say in class and what was ...he...actually doing.
Then again what is ...aiki age that could be changed?
What creates aiki-age cannot truly be changed, while the external movement can be altered all over the place to look like many things.
Dan

What I'm asking, which relates to the possibility of asagao being a mere facade for hiding the real goods, is whether Sagawa changed that external movement for the very purpose of focusing on the internal process of raising the hands.

Carl

DH 12-22-2012 08:48 AM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
Carl
No time for a lengthy post...got to go train all day.
Yes, Asagao is not a simple hand movement thing, it is a body principle involving dantian, elbow power and fure Aiki. Though I imagine just about everyone learned it and sees it ads a hand movement!! ;)

As for the Japanese way of teaching....Sometimes it's fascinating to see profound things being reduced to an obvious movements and people think what they see is all there is to it. I have no opinion on why they do what they do. My choice is to explain them and actually teach people to do these things.
Dan

Chris Li 01-20-2014 09:29 PM

Re: Aiki no Rentai
 
"Aiki no Rentai: The Conditioned Body of Yukiyoshi Sagawa" - in French, thanks to Budo Shugyosha. The original English version is here.

Best,

Chris


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