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aiki-jujutsuka 12-15-2012 11:16 AM

Uke Nagashi
 
Is uke nagashi taught from punches as well as grabs? If so is it just taught from single jabs or combinations too? What kind of speed would an advanced Aikidoka train at? Does anyone have genuine experience of using uke nagashi in self-defence? We don't practice uke nagashi strictly speaking in AJJ but it seems a very valuable technique. However, it also seems like a technique that you would have to practice a lot before it became ingrained in your muscle memory as a natural response in a fight, as I think a lot of people's first reaction to a punch or strike would be to shield themselves in a sort of boxing guard. I am interested in people's thoughts and opinions of this technique and how realistic it is on the 'street'. :)

Walter Martindale 12-15-2012 11:44 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
I'll wait - maybe someone will explain / translate "uke nagashi" for me... I speak Japanese like a Spanish cow, and only 8 years' judo, 17 years of aikido, but I've not heard that expression before.

aiki-jujutsuka 12-15-2012 12:06 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT846dqleq0 this is the technique I am referring to.

CitoMaramba 12-15-2012 12:16 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Ukenagashi is the third kata in the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei Seitei Gata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7svwoxIPHI

aiki-jujutsuka 12-15-2012 12:27 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
this video from the same instructional series also supports the fact that this was originally a sword technique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkCidyf0jWs

Does this mean it is not normally taught within the Aikido syllabus? I just assumed this was a standard Aikido technique from these youtube videos.

mathewjgano 12-15-2012 12:48 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT846dqleq0
Here's an example I found online. I wasn't familiar with the term either. We used to do something very similar as part of our tsuki kotegaeshi standard, but have since changed it up a little.
I remember thinking it didn't seem very realistic for my skill level, but I always liked it as a connection exercise. Somewhat ironically, I did think shomen uchi was more realistic, but this doesn't seem much different than that, but tilted to the side more.
My guess is that, ideally, combinations shouldn't be possible since ideally control is attained at the moment of first contact, but I can see how it might be a good way to slip into the rear corner, making the follow up attack less optimal. All that said, hopefully in the long time it took me to post this short non-answer someone with real experience has replied. :D
Take care,
Matt

aiki-jujutsuka 12-15-2012 01:23 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
there seems to be two ways of doing uke nagashi, tenkan and irimi, which do people think is more effective/realistic?

ramenboy 12-15-2012 04:45 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Matthew I agree... If the attack is 'low,' towards the stomach, the bringing the elbow up to deflect the energy doesn't seem right. In that case dropping the hips and the elbow to redirect the attack makes more sense.

If the attack is 'high,' like mune tsuki, kata tori (like in the video) or even yokomen, the deflection as shown in the video works well

Tom Verhoeven 12-15-2012 06:40 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 320604)
this video from the same instructional series also supports the fact that this was originally a sword technique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkCidyf0jWs

Does this mean it is not normally taught within the Aikido syllabus? I just assumed this was a standard Aikido technique from these youtube videos.

It is a "standard" technique in Aikido - but not all variations are being taught in every dojo or by every teacher. I think most aikidoka are for example familiar with uke nagashi against yokomen uchi.

Tom

odudog 12-15-2012 07:02 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
I never heard this term before, but Seagal uses this all the time.

Tom Verhoeven 12-15-2012 07:03 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 320606)
there seems to be two ways of doing uke nagashi, tenkan and irimi, which do people think is more effective/realistic?

Irimi - tenkan is not the best way to describe the possible variations of uke nagashi. Soto - uchi (outside - inside) would be better. There are many variations possible (usually defined by three levels shita-naka-ua), and there in lies the strength of uke nagashi, not so much in selecting one or two that are supposed te be more effective/realistic.

Uke nagashi is a much valued technique in other martial arts as well, from Shorinji Kempo to Wing Chun.

Tom

aiki-jujutsuka 12-16-2012 05:57 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Quote:

Tom Verhoeven wrote: (Post 320619)
Irimi - tenkan is not the best way to describe the possible variations of uke nagashi. Soto - uchi (outside - inside) would be better. There are many variations possible (usually defined by three levels shita-naka-ua), and there in lies the strength of uke nagashi, not so much in selecting one or two that are supposed te be more effective/realistic.

Uke nagashi is a much valued technique in other martial arts as well, from Shorinji Kempo to Wing Chun.

Tom

Thank you Tom. The principle of getting off centre line is built into Aiki-Jujutsu but we don't work so much on changing our attacker's line. It is the same as the principle of irimi, these are words not found in our AJJ vocabulary and if the principle is there it is a very subtle one. I like the way Aikido articulates and expresses these principles when judging maai and blending with your attacker's energy. I think I will try and incorporate uke nagashi irimi into my aiki variations for my next grading. :)

JJF 12-16-2012 06:39 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
I'd think this is one of the examples of a term being borrowed from other styles of budo in order to explain aikido. I believe that in several styles of budo there is a 'Uke nagashi' of some sort - some times with a different name. It can mean something a long the line of 'receive in flow'.

In the interpretation of Nishio sensei uke nagashi has become an aiki toho kata (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3CCJaqx-_A)

It has an equivalent in aikido techniques by performing aihanmi katatetori Ikkyo in a special way.. as shown here by Yoshida sensei: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fSZNTstv2w

It is also being trained in paired situations with sword against sword (youtube ken tai ken uke nagashi) and jo against sword (youtube ken tai jo uke nagashi).

The principle as I see it is to receive the attack and - not deflect or counter - but slightly realign it by altering the focus of your center towards uke. This is - in my point of view - the most fundamental basic principle of all good aikido. Therefore I perceive it more as a principle than a technique - but with at strong relation in it's purest form to aihanmi katatetori ikkyo.

No doubt the term uke nagashi is known in many styles of sword, and since sword practice is one of the fundamentals for Aikido it has re-entered the terminology of our budo in various interpretations and meanings.

Just my thoughts on the matter

Good day and a happy generic holiday statement to all regardless of faith or lack thereof :)

JJ

Walter Martindale 12-16-2012 07:26 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Ok... Since I asked the question.... I've seen and practiced this, observed Seagal doing it in his video "Path through light" (or whatever it's called).
Never heard the term.

Or if I did, it was a shihan muttering and a non-translation by someone who struggled both to hear the shihan and to keep up with the concepts being taught...

Thanks for posting the videos.

G Sinclair 12-17-2012 06:29 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 320594)
Is uke nagashi taught from punches as well as grabs? If so is it just taught from single jabs or combinations too? What kind of speed would an advanced Aikidoka train at? Does anyone have genuine experience of using uke nagashi in self-defence?

Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer:
There are three core deflections used in "Tenshin" style Aikido. Uke Nagashi is one of them. However, in the video you referenced the instructor has a few terms mixed up, so if you are looking deeper into the subject, be sure to do some more research.

You are right about the natural reaction being like a boxer's guard, but the deflections are not meant to block, they are meant to, well... Deflect. The idea is to keep the attacker's momentum going and use their strength and power against them. Blocking will just halt the attack and reset the scenario.

The deflections do take a little getting used to, but once executed properly they work well. You can use the deflections against almost all types of attacks: tsuki, shomen, yokomen, jab, snap punch, round house, haymakers, kicks, grabs and combination attacks.

Good luck!

Adam Huss 12-17-2012 08:36 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
I didn't know this had a name. Thanks for the info! Its not normally taught in our syllabus, but a bunch of guys stole this entry several years back and just about all of our dojo have guys that practice it. I'm not sure if anyone is aware it has a unique name though.

To the OP:
What I do a lot with this concept is with punches, hook punches and side strikes. What I like from a practical point is folding your arm as you move in puts you in a triangle block position. A lot of entries I do with non-aikidoka pretty much rely my entering strongly with a triangle block. This almost always absorbs some brunt force...but I pretty much expect that from people actually trying to hit me in a dynamic manner. What I am describing just above is a little more contrived and somewhat absent of the smooth blending of ukenagashi...or at least how that video explains it...but I will, of course, flow through into some aggressive technique after bringing my arm overtop and getting in a dominant position over uke.

phitruong 12-17-2012 10:01 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
wingchun lap sao/bong sao. when you get that close, i like the wingchun approach which set you up to apply a variety of aikido techniques.

aiki-jujutsuka 12-17-2012 11:01 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Quote:

Greg Sinclair wrote: (Post 320649)
Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer:
There are three core deflections used in "Tenshin" style Aikido. Uke Nagashi is one of them. However, in the video you referenced the instructor has a few terms mixed up, so if you are looking deeper into the subject, be sure to do some more research.

Thank you, you bring up a point I was going to make, as a non-aikido practitioner most of my knowledge comes from videos such as these but I don't know how reliable they are. They are well made (from my point of view) and generally inspire me to explore Aikido further but I do want to know how reliable they are. Would you mind expanding upon which terms the instructor has mixed to help me with my research. :)

Regarding you point about deflection, I agree with you I would rather deflect than block for the reasons you gave, hence my interest in learning this technique. This is what I love about Jujutsu/Aikido and why I'm not a boxer.

ramenboy 12-17-2012 12:20 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 320594)
Is uke nagashi taught from punches as well as grabs?

Quote:

jerome cervantes wrote: (Post 320594)
...If the attack is 'high,' like mune tsuki, kata tori (like in the video) or even yokomen, the deflection as shown in the video works well...

from my previous post... we will use the movement as a deflection from attacks like 'mune tsuki' - punch to the face, kata tori (shoulder grabs), yokomen uchi... strikes to the side of the head. even left or right hook

Brion Toss 12-21-2012 12:45 PM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Getting back to the question about "genuine experince," I once met a big right cross with this technique. The result was gratifying: the deflection worked so well that the (somewhat deranged) attacker ended up with his right hand banging into his left shoulder. He was so surprised that he quit attacking, and just wanted to know what had happened. A nice moment.

sakumeikan 12-22-2012 01:44 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 320606)
there seems to be two ways of doing uke nagashi, tenkan and irimi, which do people think is more effective/realistic?

Dear Ewan,
Neither.Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to one and all. Cheers, Joe.

Michael Varin 12-23-2012 04:18 AM

Re: Uke Nagashi
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 320594)
However, it also seems like a technique that you would have to practice a lot before it became ingrained in your muscle memory as a natural response in a fight, as I think a lot of people's first reaction to a punch or strike would be to shield themselves in a sort of boxing guard. I am interested in people's thoughts and opinions of this technique and how realistic it is on the 'street'.

Uke nagashi or whatever you want to call the movement (5th suburi or renzoku uchi komi in Iwama style) is a critically important sword movement. The difference between a sword or large knife and a fist, is that a human cannot cover up in response to a sword/knife strike. If that is what you are expecting to go up against, you'd be a fool to practice covering up.

It can be converted to empty-hand, but we must be careful that our movements remain appropriate. They aren't just some things that we choose to do!


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