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-   -   Kotegaeshi, help please (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22046)

camt 12-06-2012 05:25 PM

Kotegaeshi, help please
 
In the dojo, kotegaeshi seems to be easily applied and very effective. However, I was trying to show my friend the other day and it was extremely difficult to bend his wrist. He was naturally tensed up and expecting pain but I didn't think it would be so easy to prevent application by merely flexing forearm strength. Any help/tips appreciated!

robin_jet_alt 12-06-2012 06:19 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Well the issue there is that the wrist twist is actually a small part of what makes the technique work. The real trick is to get your uke in a position where you can settle your weight over a point where they can be unbalanced. The "lock" really just serves as a mechanism to maintain connection with uke's centre.

I think this picture illustrates my point:

http://members.aikidojournal.com/wp-...kotegaeshi.jpg

Janet Rosen 12-06-2012 06:24 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
You don't have to bend the wrist at all, really...it's an unbalancing of the whole person, and is based on the actual energy of the attack (you can't really "do it" to somebody who is standing there staring at you)...and when you are first learning it, it "works" in the dojo because your partners are giving their centers to you on purpose so you can practice it, just like you have to practice speaking a foreign language or driving a car, errors and all, as a beginner.

camt 12-06-2012 06:44 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 320286)
Well the issue there is that the wrist twist is actually a small part of what makes the technique work. The real trick is to get your uke in a position where you can settle your weight over a point where they can be unbalanced. The "lock" really just serves as a mechanism to maintain connection with uke's centre.

I think this picture illustrates my point:

http://members.aikidojournal.com/wp-...kotegaeshi.jpg

That's an awesome picture! Thanks for that.

It definitely unbalanced him when I applied it but it was difficult to get him to go to the ground with it. I see what you're saying, but it feels so unnatural when I couldn't get that bend that I'm used to. I'll keep practicing!

Michael Varin 12-06-2012 08:22 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Cameron,

The next time you try kote gaeshi on your friend, don't say anything, just grab him off-hand and throw with kote gaeshi, and see what happens.

If you pay close attention to what was different and the possibilites as to why it was different, I think you will pick up on some "secrets" that will guide you in your training.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been training?

camt 12-06-2012 10:23 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
I've only been training since September. So yeah I need a lot more practice time and I'll be asking my sensei for some help with it.

Any suggestions are welcome: I'm really curious to hear what other peoples experiences have been when they encounter people with strong wrists that do not bend easily.

ChrisHein 12-06-2012 10:24 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Aikido techniques flow one into the next. If someone knows an Aikido technique is coming, it will not be difficult for them to resist. However when you use the techniques together they will work nicely. A good technique to use along side kotegaeshi is rokyo. Here is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.aikidostudent.com/oldasc/content/?p=301

Hope this is useful.

Mark Gibbons 12-06-2012 11:28 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
From the aikido dark side.

Offer your victim something to take from your hand. Take their balance as they reach for the object. Kotegaesh follows fairly easily. I've heard it even works while sitting in an office chair on wheels.

Michael Varin 12-07-2012 12:24 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Great video, Chris.

Time flies!

And...

Cameron,

You're only about three months in. I wouldn't worry too much about demostrating aikido waza to your friends right now.

As you improve you will develop the ability to "force" techniques on people, but Like Chris and others said, that's not really the goal, and in many respects is a very limited strategy.

JJF 12-07-2012 01:42 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Michael Varin wrote: (Post 320292)
Cameron,

The next time you try kote gaeshi on your friend, don't say anything, just grab him off-hand and throw with kote gaeshi, and see what happens.

If you pay close attention to what was different and the possibilites as to why it was different, I think you will pick up on some "secrets" that will guide you in your training.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been training?

uhmm... I think I would refrain from forcing anybody who are not trained in ukemi to take a kotegashi fall. Especially if it's outside of the dojo. Quite a big risk of hurting them badly.

Apart from that I think Michael is right. The 'tensing up' that will follow from the expectation that something is about to happen that may include pain will ruin any aikido technique. The thing is - as I see it - aikido dosen't really work unless uke is comitted to the attack, and that situation is just impossible to reproduce outside of the dojo unless it is an actual fight. Disclaimer: I am NOT encouraging you to pick a fight with your friends ind order to demonstrate Aikido ;)

Point is - it takes a long time of practicing with reduced power and speed and a lot of cooperation before aikido becomes fluent and effective. We learn to react to the locks and that is what makes it safe for us to practice on the mat at high pace. If applied full speed on an attacker that is comitted to attacking you will most likely result in serious damage to him (or you if you don't get out of the way).

I rarely demonstrate anything on non-aikido people anymore except from nikkyo and yonkyo. It is not techniques that by them selves really show the essence of Aikido, but they can be applied with moderation and proves some aspects of the effectiveness of aikido.

My advice: get your friend to come to the dojo for a few months and try it out.

Have a great day

JJ

grondahl 12-07-2012 07:43 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Jørgen Jakob Friis wrote: (Post 320303)
uhmm... I think I would refrain from forcing anybody who are not trained in ukemi to take a kotegashi fall. Especially if it's outside of the dojo. Quite a big risk of hurting them badly.

I find that kotegaeshi is a technique that you can apply rather vigorously even on beginners if you dont focus on the wrist twisting. After all, the "fall" is only a balance break from standing and you can dampen the impact with the arm you are controlling.

phitruong 12-07-2012 09:27 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
there should be new aikido student rule:

do not try what you learned in aikido on your friends, family, significant others, neighbors, pets, aliens from outer space, and/or others not listed here without your teacher(s) consent

Marc Abrams 12-07-2012 09:35 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 320312)
there should be new aikido student rule:

do not try what you learned in aikido on your friends, family, significant others, neighbors, pets, aliens from outer space, and/or others not listed here without your teacher(s) consent

Phi:

I have officially hired you as the caretaker of the elephant in the room......;) .

What he said..........

Marc Abrams

MM 12-07-2012 10:33 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Cameron Tarr wrote: (Post 320285)
In the dojo, kotegaeshi seems to be easily applied and very effective. However, I was trying to show my friend the other day and it was extremely difficult to bend his wrist. He was naturally tensed up and expecting pain but I didn't think it would be so easy to prevent application by merely flexing forearm strength. Any help/tips appreciated!

Unfortunately, you just discovered one of the major shortcomings of Modern Aikido training: The "ukemi" model. You are trained to give up your center and fall in a specific manner. So, everything is going to work fairly well in the dojo. Everyone gets trained to do this.

If anyone disagrees, then try this and report back:

1. Get a teen wrestler with no aikido experience and try kotegaeshi, allowing the teen to use wrestling experience.

2. Get a BJJ practitioner and do the same.

3. Get a Judo practitioner and do the same.

4. Get a Karate/TKD practitioner and do the same.

5. Get an average Joe/Jane off the street and tell them to try not to comply and try it.

6. Get a Boxer and do the same.

Did any of them fall like a "normal" aikido practitioner? Or did a lot of other things happen?

Now, before you start in on all the rationalizations and excuses and explanations, answer the question on why Ueshiba could get 1-6 to work just fine, why everyone who trained with Ueshiba had to learn their own way of "ukemi" to protect themselves (they weren't taught by Ueshiba to roll and fall), and why this was also the case from the mid-late 1920s on ...

The modern "ukemi" model in Modern Aikido is a big problem.

Cliff Judge 12-07-2012 10:48 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Aikido people tend to translate kotegaeshi as "wrist twist."

A better translation would be "forearm turn".

The wrist itself has little to do with it.

Mario Tobias 12-07-2012 11:59 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Jørgen Jakob Friis wrote: (Post 320303)
The thing is - as I see it - aikido dosen't really work unless uke is comitted to the attack, and that situation is just impossible to reproduce outside of the dojo unless it is an actual fight.

JJ

I've got different view on this one. The thing is one of the most difficult goals in aikido IMO is to make aikido work even with a non-committed partner. Saying such, I only really know the tip of the iceberg of what aikido has to offer. The beauty with this art is that sometimes it borders on the magical. You just get surprised you suddenly can do neat tricks after a few decades practice without understanding why and how you can do this. IMHO, we should not limit ourselves only to what we think are the possibilities with this art but seek what the art to really has to offer even though we think it impossible at first.

camt 12-07-2012 12:21 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 320316)
Unfortunately, you just discovered one of the major shortcomings of Modern Aikido training: The "ukemi" model. You are trained to give up your center and fall in a specific manner. So, everything is going to work fairly well in the dojo. Everyone gets trained to do this.

If anyone disagrees, then try this and report back:

1. Get a teen wrestler with no aikido experience and try kotegaeshi, allowing the teen to use wrestling experience.

2. Get a BJJ practitioner and do the same.

3. Get a Judo practitioner and do the same.

4. Get a Karate/TKD practitioner and do the same.

5. Get an average Joe/Jane off the street and tell them to try not to comply and try it.

6. Get a Boxer and do the same.

Did any of them fall like a "normal" aikido practitioner? Or did a lot of other things happen?

Now, before you start in on all the rationalizations and excuses and explanations, answer the question on why Ueshiba could get 1-6 to work just fine, why everyone who trained with Ueshiba had to learn their own way of "ukemi" to protect themselves (they weren't taught by Ueshiba to roll and fall), and why this was also the case from the mid-late 1920s on ...

The modern "ukemi" model in Modern Aikido is a big problem.

Kotegaeshi was not working well against his strength but I did get a sankyo from a collar grab that had him spinning like mad on the floor. He's a trained wrestler and has some BJJ training; he actually tried to spin in for an arm bar on me. We did this in my living room so there wasn't enough space to pin him properly but I think I had him; and he admitted that he liked sankyo.

Just a disclaimer: were two very old friends and have been doing this stuff (wresling/goofing around) for many many years. We both know the risks and were just having fun.

Interesting comments to all of the above: I've learned quite a bit, thank you.

Mario Tobias 12-07-2012 12:26 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
It's easy to do kotegaeshi for someone with a locked wrist.

3 principles you need to know

1. If you can't move a part (either uke's or your own, like being held), do not attempt to move that part. Move whatever part you can move and start from there.
In the case of a locked wrist in kotegaeshi (assuming the arm is in front of him since it's the strongest position), move/stretch his shoulder so that his arm is now to his side. The more that his arm is to the side of him, the weaker is his wrist. The more the arm is in front of uke, the stronger the wrist. Look again at osensei's picture. You can do this static with the slowest of motions. Interesting experiment.

2. Every joint is connected to another joint. If one joint is locked, do not attempt to do a technique on that joint ( unless you're uber advanced), attack the next or next 2 joints. In this case. you can attack the elbow or the shoulder as the pointer above.

3. Take uke's mind. When uke locks on a joint, his mind is focused on that joint. You need to briefly distract him to remove his focus on that joint. This can be done 3 ways.
a. A slap/atemi on the face b. attacking another joint c. unbalancing him, in this case his focused is shifted to regaining his balance of course. IMHO, this is more important as a prerequisite prior to doing the technique. If this doesn't exist, you can't do the technique properly.

Hope this helps.

camt 12-07-2012 12:29 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
I assume people have seen the Anderson Silva training video with Steven Seagal. He gives Anderson a few kotegaeshis(plural form?) with ease; albeit Anderson isn't ready for it.

Check out the vid if you haven't the first one is at 3:40ish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1jIlljXq2Y

ChrisHein 12-07-2012 02:11 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
I think if you and your friend are able people and understand the natural risks of rough housing, it's great to try Aikido technique outside of the Dojo. I learned lot's and lots from doing this, I've also never broken anyones anything outside of the Dojo. Be smart, and figure out how your techniques work.

Aikido doesn't need anything extra to work, that you're not going to learn from 90% of the Aikido teachers out there. However you do need to take the time and figure out how you can use your techniques, that requires trying them, a lot, on lots of different people. Before you know it Aikido will seem simple and effective!

Good luck!!

Conrad Gus 12-07-2012 04:35 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Cameron,

You train at UVic right? Ask Jason about different ways to do Kotegaeshi against resistance. He can show you first hand what you are looking for.

Cheers,

Conrad

robin_jet_alt 12-07-2012 08:27 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Cameron Tarr wrote: (Post 320324)
I assume people have seen the Anderson Silva training video with Steven Seagal. He gives Anderson a few kotegaeshis(plural form?) with ease; albeit Anderson isn't ready for it.

Check out the vid if you haven't the first one is at 3:40ish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1jIlljXq2Y

Notice the angle on the kotegaeshi at 3:40. It is behind Silva, not in front of him.

camt 12-08-2012 12:33 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Conrad Gustafson wrote: (Post 320338)
Cameron,

You train at UVic right? Ask Jason about different ways to do Kotegaeshi against resistance. He can show you first hand what you are looking for.

Cheers,

Conrad

Yes indeed, and will do.

Michael Varin 12-09-2012 02:37 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:
Unfortunately, you just discovered one of the major shortcomings of Modern Aikido training: The "ukemi" model. You are trained to give up your center and fall in a specific manner. So, everything is going to work fairly well in the dojo. Everyone gets trained to do this.

If anyone disagrees, then try this and report back:

1. Get a teen wrestler with no aikido experience and try kotegaeshi, allowing the teen to use wrestling experience.

2. Get a BJJ practitioner and do the same.

3. Get a Judo practitioner and do the same.

4. Get a Karate/TKD practitioner and do the same.

5. Get an average Joe/Jane off the street and tell them to try not to comply and try it.

6. Get a Boxer and do the same.

Did any of them fall like a "normal" aikido practitioner? Or did a lot of other things happen?

Now, before you start in on all the rationalizations and excuses and explanations, answer the question on why Ueshiba could get 1-6 to work just fine, why everyone who trained with Ueshiba had to learn their own way of "ukemi" to protect themselves (they weren't taught by Ueshiba to roll and fall), and why this was also the case from the mid-late 1920s on ...

The modern "ukemi" model in Modern Aikido is a big problem.

1 - 6? No problem. I could kote gaeshi people from any of those groups.

I've done aikido for a long time. I've gotten good at what I do.

Did any of those people fall like someone trained in aikido? Do I care? Or could I effect the technique? What are you even asking?

Could Ueshiba really? Have you seen it?

Did taekwondo even exist? I know BJJ didn't, so it's safe to say Ueshiba never applied anything on any BJJ practioner!

How do you know Ueshiba didn't teach ukemi? What is your direct experience with that?

Are you aware of the fact that martial arts like wrestling, judo, BJJ, and MMA used something like the nage-uke model to teach techniques? You must be, right?

Bill Danosky 10-03-2013 03:29 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Can't say for all styles, but in Yoshinkan it's hard to get Kote Gaeshi unless you can get uke to take at least one step. There is a noteable exception, because Kote Gaeshi is one of the few techniques we have that can be applied from the inside. That works at contact distance, but it's a harsh one to practice.


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