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-   -   Ai / Hap (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21988)

JJF 11-23-2012 04:49 AM

Ai / Hap
 
I've recently met a guy who used to do some hapkido. He might take up aikido in our dojo, so just to see what his background is, I did a little google / Youtube search.

It's interesting to note how the two differs - and especially how the difference is being presented by each of the arts.

Reading this:
http://www.hapkiyoosool.com/compare.htm

only makes me more sure that I have chosen the one of the two better suited to me...

All in all it's a fair comparison although I recent where they claim that attacks in aikido are 'styliced' and not as crisp as in hapkido. EG this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiSlt...eature=related
at 1:32 there is a strike towards the head that would not be accepted in my dojo since it stops several inches away from where it is supposed to go. This being a very high ranking instructor he should demand closer contact by uke (the way I understand this type of attack).
However at 3:52 there is a really good example of a throw that I think could be great aikido.

Any thoughts as to the way the two arts have developed? anybody tried both and chosen one for a specific reason?

I can see that for self defence Hapkido might very well be the shorter path, but what really turns me away is the way that the attacker is being treated (as far as I can judge). Pain and aggression is being used way too much in my opinion, but then again.. I'm biased :)

odudog 11-23-2012 05:15 AM

Re: Ai / Hap
 
Quote:

Jørgen Jakob Friis wrote: (Post 319555)
I've recently met a guy who used to do some hapkido. He might take up aikido in our dojo, so just to see what his background is, I did a little google / Youtube search.

It's interesting to note how the two differs - and especially how the difference is being presented by each of the arts.

Reading this:
http://www.hapkiyoosool.com/compare.htm

only makes me more sure that I have chosen the one of the two better suited to me...

All in all it's a fair comparison although I recent where they claim that attacks in aikido are 'styliced' and not as crisp as in hapkido. EG this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiSlt...eature=related
at 1:32 there is a strike towards the head that would not be accepted in my dojo since it stops several inches away from where it is supposed to go. This being a very high ranking instructor he should demand closer contact by uke (the way I understand this type of attack).
However at 3:52 there is a really good example of a throw that I think could be great aikido.

Any thoughts as to the way the two arts have developed? anybody tried both and chosen one for a specific reason?

I can see that for self defence Hapkido might very well be the shorter path, but what really turns me away is the way that the attacker is being treated (as far as I can judge). Pain and aggression is being used way too much in my opinion, but then again.. I'm biased :)

I call hapkido our ugly cousin. It is not as fluid as what we do. Basically, it is daito-ryu mixed with an old style korean kicking art. I don't know if Choi changed the daito-ryu as Osensei did or if Choi was just not graceful and this tranfered over to hapkido. Don't put too much stock into that comparison list for some places teaches pressure points and demands atemi in their aikido. It's marketing.

Rupert Atkinson 11-23-2012 09:11 AM

Re: Ai / Hap
 
Some Hapkido is really good - but I always cringe when I see those demos where the uke flaps about like an injured fish. You know, it's only recently that Koreans have woken up to the fact that it is even related to Aikido/Daito-ryu - and boy do they hate that. Though, there are a few that have known all along.

Brian Beach 11-23-2012 10:16 AM

Re: Ai / Hap
 
I've done both. There are techniques that look outwardly similar but the execution is different because the goals are different. Hapkido looks to do damage and do it quickly. Aikido looks to control. Where in Aikido structural unbalancing is imperative, Hapkido can and does bypass with pain and striking. If it doesn't hurt it isn't Hapkido. It took me a while to mentally shift. I'm glad I did.

aiki-jujutsuka 11-24-2012 05:48 AM

Re: Ai / Hap
 
demos like that would give novices alot of confidence that you can do alot of damage with Hapkido, which seems to be the priority of many people when assessing potential martial arts. I enjoyed the demo but I certainly hope those uke's (or whatever they're called in Korean) warmed up properly. That master looked like he hyperextended a few of those arm locks. However, I was uncomfortable with the severity of the demo when the uke was clearly compliant. Pain can be the objective of the art without you having to prove it against a compliant uke. Aiki-Jujutsu uses alot of pain compliance in its techniques but the objective is control not damage (though damage can be a real consequence).

Rupert Atkinson 11-24-2012 08:49 AM

Re: Ai / Hap
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 319589)
demos like that would give novices alot of confidence that you can do alot of damage with Hapkido, which seems to be the priority of many people when assessing potential martial arts. I enjoyed the demo but I certainly hope those uke's (or whatever they're called in Korean) warmed up properly. That master looked like he hyperextended a few of those arm locks. However, I was uncomfortable with the severity of the demo when the uke was clearly compliant. Pain can be the objective of the art without you having to prove it against a compliant uke. Aiki-Jujutsu uses alot of pain compliance in its techniques but the objective is control not damage (though damage can be a real consequence).

Trust me - it doesn't really hurt. They are just screaming and flapping about for the demo - they are very good at what they do but my take on demos like that - PATHETIC. It's like pro wrestling. They don't normally train like that though - it's more for the demos. At least, where I trained in Hapkido they didn't. If you can't see thru it you need to retrain your eyes or you'll end up with a teacher that's no good.

PS And if someone did a technique on me that really hurt like that they would find out what I thought about it when it was my turn. Been there done that :)

aiki-jujutsuka 11-24-2012 12:31 PM

Re: Ai / Hap
 
I am glad to hear the techniques were not applied to breaking point like what was being implied in the demo; however 'faking' like that isn't helpful either because otherwise people will be disappointed if that is what they came for. I guess the point I was trying to make about novices and confidence is that for many people they like to see 'hard' style arts or external arts that do alot of damage and so therefore the demo would appeal to them. Demos are a way of selling or promoting your art so I understand that the master would have been 'laying it on thick' in order to 'impress'.

Brian Beach 11-24-2012 06:17 PM

Re: Ai / Hap
 
There is also the factor of having done to you multiple times the effects are slightly negated. The shock factor is taken away. He's doing those locks tight. Although I agree the reaction is overreaction. Pure theater.

Richard Stevens 11-27-2012 08:24 AM

Re: Ai / Hap
 
I'm not sure what's harder to watch. A Hapkido demo where the uke's are unnecessarily screaming in pain, an Aikido demo where the uke flies through the air just by being looked at or one of the gymnastic karate demos that look like an audition for the Power Rangers.

I know a couple of Hapkido guys and their technique is very good. It reminded me of rough Jujutsu, for obvious reasons. I remembered the boys from Fight Quest went to Korea and trained in Hapkido and I thought it was pretty interesting. Found some of the episode on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR8beL8G7V4

JJF 11-28-2012 12:56 AM

Re: Ai / Hap
 
Thank's for the replies everyone. I feel somewhat confirmed in my first assement of Hapkido based on the www. It seems to me that both are interpretations of a somewhat common background. One with a lot of emphasis on small movements effective for self defence - one with larger movements searching to take care of the attacker if possible.

The rest of the comparisons seem to differ based on what kind of style within the systems one practices. I think on a line from very combat focused to very soft both arts will scatter across the line - however with a bit more aikido towards the combat end of the line and vice versa.

I now have a understanding of what I should expect to deal with, if a former hapkido student shows up for aikido class :)


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