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-   -   Requirements to demonstrate "IP"? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21955)

ChrisHein 11-10-2012 09:38 PM

Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
I'm putting together a little investigative paper, in which I'm planning on working with some experts in the "IP" area. But in order to make this paper, I need to understand what would and would not constitute having, "internal power" or "IP".

I am curious, what abilities should one who has "IP" be able to demonstrate that a non "IP" having person could not? What things are "proof" of IP? Thing's that I can put in a paper and point to after having met with IP experts. How would I know if a person had "IP" and was not simply strong in an "external way", or was using some kind of "trick" or other technique that might fool me? Beyond word of mouth, what proof of "IP" can I use?

Other then "it felt strange" what kinds of things could I point out, or ask about that would show someone having "IP" over "EP" (external power).

David Orange 11-10-2012 11:01 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Read the Baseline Skills thread on aikiweb. Look for Mike Sigman's Teacher Test criteria. This has all been stated in detail and at length in more than one thread. Baseline Skills will probably tell you all you need for your research.

Of course...you need to meet these "experts" in person. It has to be "experienced"--not talked about.

And another hint: save yourself the trouble of figuring out which ones do or don't have "it" by skipping the ones who don't already have a well established reputation for having the goods. A short list of those to see would include (in no particular order):

Dan Harden
Mike Sigman
Minoru Akuzawa
Rob John
Forrest Chang

These, at least, I'm sure of.

Dan has also stated that Sam Chinn has the goods, so add him.

Also, apparently, William Gleason.

Other people have given you a few other names.

But save yourself the waste of time by only going to those already acknowledged and recognized as real experts. No point in analyzing and finding the fallacies in a bunch of guys no one ever heard of and using their failings to represent IP.

David

ChrisHein 11-11-2012 12:57 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Cool thanks for the point in those directions, David.

Cady Goldfield 11-11-2012 11:32 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
I have felt Sam Chin hands-on and can verify that he has both IP and aiki. As mentioned in another thread, he is doing a workshop in Southern California in January, and in the Bay area in December.

Michael Douglas 11-11-2012 11:47 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Excellent idea.
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318834)
But in order to make this paper, I need to understand what would and would not constitute having, "internal power" or "IP"..

Can you find some concrete indications and check for them in a blind test?
That would go a long way towards a general 'proof' that something exists which can be described as internal skill.

ChrisHein 11-11-2012 12:30 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Quote:

Michael Douglas wrote: (Post 318859)
Excellent idea.

Can you find some concrete indications and check for them in a blind test?
That would go a long way towards a general 'proof' that something exists which can be described as internal skill.

I think this is a great idea. And we could easily do it. It however might be rude at a seminar to suggest we do a blind test, and probably out of the scope for what I'm asking. But on a side note, I would love to do it if any IP experts were up to it.

Jeremy Hulley 11-11-2012 12:53 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
If you can, get the list of Stupid Jin tricks that Forrest Chang put together. Its been a few years since I read them but I remember them as being pretty comprehensive.

ChrisHein 11-11-2012 01:06 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
At one point I was allowed to see the video of Forrest doing those. I don't think I can anymore, if it's possible I'd like to see that video again (calling to the powers that be).

Mary Eastland 11-11-2012 07:03 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
I think you could start with those that can pop off the wall with very loud noise. That could be number one. What do you think? :)

ChrisHein 11-11-2012 07:51 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
I found that I could pop off the wall first time I tried. Because I can do it, I know that it must not be "IP"...

HL1978 11-11-2012 08:04 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Something simple like the teacher test is a good start as it is a static position.

Like i said in the other thread here basically demo's that don't require momentum, big movements, rotations (of the body or arms) or explosive power in order to pull it off. Not to say that those can't be used, but they aren't the primary means by which most internal people are generating power.

Anyone who has Jin, should be able to do Forrest Chang's stupid jin tricks. As Forrest said in his seminar, any big name guy should be able to do it, and might laugh because they are very basic things, that get built upon. I think there are 7 in total, and if you haven't been exposed to the subject matter before, they can be quite surprising, and the martial utility becomes apparent right away.

ChrisHein 11-11-2012 08:23 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Thanks Hunter.
I was given a link and password to those video's once before, do you know how I could go about getting that again?

Alfonso 11-11-2012 10:56 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Hey Chris

we met, so i know how you feel about these things

in any case, here's a good video of CXW (Chen XiaoWang) showing movement that is conforming to the rquirements of internal strength

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Holnh...eature=related

Pay attention to the way he describes his various hits and how they look. I told you when we met that the dichotomy your proposing of athletics vs internal is nonsense there is no jedi stuff goning on here. But there is a different logic to the body movement to other types which are very good.

In any case why go to the students when there are legitimate masters around?

But just in case, in this video there is one guy with an Aikido background , a nidan in yoshinkan actually, who has spent his time pursuing internal training; you're familiar with the venue I understand. see if you can spot him. He's actually an aikiweb member too. He is much too modest to bring himself up, so I am taking the liberty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc

ChrisHein 11-12-2012 12:10 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
I couldn't tell who it was, you should tell us. Congrats to anyone who is willing to go in with the dog brothers!! It's no joke.

I'm not sure what I'm seeing in that video of CXW. I did see him using his favorite technique at 2:10.

HL1978 11-12-2012 06:47 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318888)
Thanks Hunter.
I was given a link and password to those video's once before, do you know how I could go about getting that again?

I unfortunately no longer have access to them myself. I have access to my notes, which explain what the SJTs are conceptually, but I don't think I wrote down exactly what Forrest demoed for each one.

Alfonso 11-12-2012 07:58 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Hey Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc#t=2m17s

he appears before at 1m10s and again later. So, he credits the work he's done on IS to allow him to pull this off. And if you tally his hours training in martial arts I'm afraid his #1 would have to be Aikido. But he is a dog brother now too ( Mongolian Dog )

Another guy, Forrest Chang is someone who has put in a lot of work and training, can speak the language, and can understand the context of the chinese in martial arts too, and a very intelligent human being. Stupid Jin Tricks is a list of things that you should be able to do without training to do them if using internal stuff. The brain is a very plastic thing, no magic , no woowoo but sitll very plastic and trainable. Over time; with good guideance. He's worth meeting , but you'll have to be in the context of chinese IMA , I dont think he's very interested in aikido at all.

And I stand by what I said, human bodies are human bodies and scientific inquiry is a process. Stuff not understood will be better understood. That's all.

phitruong 11-12-2012 08:18 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: (Post 319011)
he appears before at 1m10s and again later. So, he credits the work he's done on IS to allow him to pull this off. And if you tally his hours training in martial arts I'm afraid his #1 would have to be Aikido. But he is a dog brother now too ( Mongolian Dog )
.

is there real dog in mongolian dog? would it taste good with chili and coleslaw? oh crap! ck is going to kill me now! :)

ChrisHein 11-12-2012 11:53 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
That is awesome. Becoming a "Dog Brother" is also not an easy task, it's a very difficult and impressive thing to do!

rroeserr 11-13-2012 12:59 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318834)
I'm putting together a little investigative paper, in which I'm planning on working with some experts in the "IP" area. But in order to make this paper, I need to understand what would and would not constitute having, "internal power" or "IP".

I am curious, what abilities should one who has "IP" be able to demonstrate that a non "IP" having person could not? What things are "proof" of IP? Thing's that I can put in a paper and point to after having met with IP experts. How would I know if a person had "IP" and was not simply strong in an "external way", or was using some kind of "trick" or other technique that might fool me? Beyond word of mouth, what proof of "IP" can I use?

Other then "it felt strange" what kinds of things could I point out, or ask about that would show someone having "IP" over "EP" (external power).

You could actually walk away from the keyboard, be polite, and go meet someone in person. It's novel I know.

Richard Stevens 11-13-2012 07:08 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
I wholeheartedly agree with Robert. I was HIGHLY skeptical of the whole Aiki/IP argument. However, instead of clinging to what I know and then doubling down on my ignorance (lack of first hand knowledge) and backing myself into a corner, I kept quiet about the topic and waited until I "felt" it before I said anything. If what I felt would have been BS, I would have been just as vocal.

Demetrio Cereijo 11-13-2012 08:57 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: (Post 319011)
Hey Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc#t=2m17s

he appears before at 1m10s and again later. So, he credits the work he's done on IS to allow him to pull this off. And if you tally his hours training in martial arts I'm afraid his #1 would have to be Aikido. But he is a dog brother now too ( Mongolian Dog )

Anyone can have a bad day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2a6Phqwj4 (faint hearted beware)

HL1978 11-13-2012 09:25 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: (Post 319011)
Hey Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc#t=2m17s

he appears before at 1m10s and again later. So, he credits the work he's done on IS to allow him to pull this off. And if you tally his hours training in martial arts I'm afraid his #1 would have to be Aikido. But he is a dog brother now too ( Mongolian Dog )

Another guy, Forrest Chang is someone who has put in a lot of work and training, can speak the language, and can understand the context of the chinese in martial arts too, and a very intelligent human being. Stupid Jin Tricks is a list of things that you should be able to do without training to do them if using internal stuff. The brain is a very plastic thing, no magic , no woowoo but sitll very plastic and trainable. Over time; with good guideance. He's worth meeting , but you'll have to be in the context of chinese IMA , I dont think he's very interested in aikido at all.

And I stand by what I said, human bodies are human bodies and scientific inquiry is a process. Stuff not understood will be better understood. That's all.

CK is in a bunch of dog brothers videos, though his judo comp videos are not for public consumption. He does some pretty nifty stuff against much bigger guys.

Rob Watson 11-13-2012 09:55 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 319043)
Anyone can have a bad day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2a6Phqwj4 (faint hearted beware)

And has been said before ... fighting and IP/aiki etc are different. Fighting with aiki is different. Not to mention fighting with edged weapons is not to be trifled with (even if the edges are dull).

Alfonso 11-13-2012 10:34 AM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
regardless, this guy stepped up and proved himself. He even fought a pro MMA match and won. Does this mean invincible warrior? No , but it goes to show that marshmallows and butterflies it's not.

Tin Tran 11-13-2012 12:34 PM

Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
 
Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: (Post 319051)
No , but it goes to show that marshmallows and butterflies it's not.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/08/us/dog...rts/index.html

Jump to 3:33 at the CNN clip above and take a look at the effect of his punch on the other guy. As Alfonso pointed out, Mongolian Dog is a modest gentleman, and he is guided by the "be friends at the end of the day" mantra that is recited at each gathering.

Tin


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