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-   -   What is "IP" discussion of Internal power. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21943)

ChrisHein 11-06-2012 02:15 PM

What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
This video was posted by Rober Roeser in a thread discussion involving the definition of Aiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=21936&page=3)

Quote:

Robert Roeser wrote: (Post 318533)
Here's a video that has Chen Xiaowang being 'rooted' against a couple of different people - the video is corny, and it's Chinese, but it probably the closest video you'll find to the tenryu/osensei deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoP...ature=youtu.be

At 3:28 you can see him getting pushed on by a guy that is around 400 pounds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=3m28s

At the end of the video is him trying to stay in the a circle getting pushed on by a strongman. Here's a the part where the strongman is pushing a semit-truck with a trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=13m55s

Here's the 3 1 minute rounds start at the end where the strongman tries to push Chen Xiaowang out of the circle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=19m47s

I don't speak Chinese but I would like to know what the strongman is saying at the end after pushing on CXW.

First off I would like to know, (I believe) the fellow demonstrating in this video is named "Chen Xiaowang", does he have "IP" (internal power)? Does most of the internal power community recognize his having "IP", is he "vetted"?

Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?

mathewjgano 11-06-2012 02:17 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318541)
This video was posted by Rober Roeser in a thread discussion involving the definition of Aiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=21936&page=3)

First off I would like to know, (I believe) the fellow demonstrating in this video is named "Chen Xiaowang", does he have "IP" (internal power)? Does most of the internal power community recognize his having "IP", is he "vetted"?

Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?

I'm no adept, but I get the impression he's one of the more respected people...and watching the videos (among others I've seen of his students) I certainly think he's on to something. :D

chillzATL 11-06-2012 02:19 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318541)
This video was posted by Rober Roeser in a thread discussion involving the definition of Aiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=21936&page=3)

First off I would like to know, (I believe) the fellow demonstrating in this video is named "Chen Xiaowang", does he have "IP" (internal power)? Does most of the internal power community recognize his having "IP", is he "vetted"?

Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?

yes.

Yes.

Rupert Atkinson 11-06-2012 02:29 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
To me - it's obvious. Ueshiba went to China and saw all this. I figured that out 20 years ago. I've been to China too. Heck, I even saw one school the squealed and sqaurked like Brusce Lee. Even Sirum wrestling in Korea is based on this pushing test, in my opinion. Maybe even Sumo. And with that in mind (if it were true) we can see how easy it is to deviate from the source.

jss 11-06-2012 02:32 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318541)
First off I would like to know, (I believe) the fellow demonstrating in this video is named "Chen Xiaowang", does he have "IP" (internal power)?

Yes.

Quote:

Does most of the internal power community recognize his having "IP", is he "vetted"?
I think so. Then again, it may depend on who exactly you accept as being in such a community.

Quote:

Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?
Yes, but bear in mind that being able to reproduce the demonstration does not necessarily mean one has IP.

grondahl 11-06-2012 02:44 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 318544)
To me - it's obvious. Ueshiba went to China and saw all this. I figured that out 20 years ago. I've been to China too.

Except that itīs pretty clear that this kind of training already existed in Daito Ryu.

jss 11-06-2012 02:51 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 318544)
To me - it's obvious. Ueshiba went to China and saw all this. I figured that out 20 years ago. I've been to China too.

Well, I have been to Greece like several times and we all know that everything the Chinese know about martial arts came from the Ancient Greeks through the Alexander the Great / Bodhidharma / Shaolin lineage! :D

ChrisHein 11-06-2012 04:48 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
What is being shown in this video, all be it very well, is a simple demonstration of structure. Now the fellow demonstrating it, Chen Xiaowang is clearly very physically able, and is very practiced at this method of body use. I wouldn't say that the average person could do what he's doing without a significant amount of training, probably around a year or two. However the principle that he is using in this demonstration can be achieved by any average person in only a few minutes, and you can show a similar feat against someone significantly larger than you as soon as you understand what I am about to write.

When the strong man pushes into Chen Xiaowang, Chen locks his arm under strongman's arm pit, joining their structures. Every time the strongman pushes he is actually pushing against himself via a very simple redirection done by Chen Xiaowang. Here is a diagram to help you understand this principle.


Because of the simple redirection, every time the strongman pushes (force "A"), that force goes through Chen Xiaowang's structure, and back into the strongman (force "AB"), pushing the strongman up and back, and Xiaowang's structure down every time he pushes.

This is not to say that it is easy to redirect this much force, but it is possible, requiring you to use much much less force than the pusher is using. This is a simple example of mechanical advantage. You should try it with your friends, you'll be surprised!

Here is a clip I made a year or two back, explaining the same thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3wkxr0Jq4&t=1m15s

Here is the whole video if your interested in my views on structure and alignment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3wkxr0Jq4

phitruong 11-06-2012 04:56 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
chris, not about the arms. you ignored this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=3m28s. again, not about the arms. i did similar thing to howard popkin and mike sigman, and their arms were nowhere near mine.

phitruong 11-06-2012 05:07 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
chris, also to get under someone without changing your body posture is SJT #1 (stupid jin trick #1). it's one of the first test to see if someone is doing external or internal. have someone shorter than you to go as low as they can, then have them push up at you at chest level and see if you can "get under them" without changing your body posture where you stand in a higher stand. and did i mention that you are not allow to touch their arms?

ChrisHein 11-06-2012 05:21 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Well, in all the demonstrations Chen Xiaowang is doing, in this video, his arm is under the other guys. So maybe he's not using this redirection, but his arm is exactly where it needs to be in order to do this.

There are other ways to achieve this result, but we'd have to examine those on a case by case basis. If more IP experts would put their stuff on video, we could do this, so we could better see what is happening. Maybe they'll start showing more stuff on video...

ChrisHein 11-06-2012 05:24 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
In the clip you posted Phi, he is doing the same thing, although the camera is careful to stay away from it, you still see it many times. He also hits the guy in the side, which probably made the guy want to stop pushing much more quickly.

phitruong 11-06-2012 05:35 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318558)
In the clip you posted Phi, he is doing the same thing, although the camera is careful to stay away from it, you still see it many times. He also hits the guy in the side, which probably made the guy want to stop pushing much more quickly.

if he can hit the guy, how is it that he can remove his hand if he needed it? as i said, not the arms.

DH 11-06-2012 07:01 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 318559)
if he can hit the guy, how is it that he can remove his hand if he needed it? as i said, not the arms.

You're not going to convince him Phi. With Chrisand others it is a forgone conclusion that:
External and internal are the same
All of the internal discussion equates to learned technical based tricks that they already know
Anyone can learn these "moves" in a year or two because it is what "they" know.
The rest is all smoke and mirrors.
You might as well argue over how to ride a bike

I chimed in on the other thread, really for the benefit of others.
Just practice and get better

"Everyone talks
You shugyo
Years go by
People still talking
Then you get up and demonstrate
The everyone knows the truth...."

Words to live by.The only *real* debate left is....words.
Dan

chillzATL 11-06-2012 07:33 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318554)
What is being shown in this video, all be it very well, is a simple demonstration of structure. Now the fellow demonstrating it, Chen Xiaowang is clearly very physically able, and is very practiced at this method of body use. I wouldn't say that the average person could do what he's doing without a significant amount of training, probably around a year or two. However the principle that he is using in this demonstration can be achieved by any average person in only a few minutes, and you can show a similar feat against someone significantly larger than you as soon as you understand what I am about to write.

When the strong man pushes into Chen Xiaowang, Chen locks his arm under strongman's arm pit, joining their structures. Every time the strongman pushes he is actually pushing against himself via a very simple redirection done by Chen Xiaowang. Here is a diagram to help you understand this principle.


Because of the simple redirection, every time the strongman pushes (force "A"), that force goes through Chen Xiaowang's structure, and back into the strongman (force "AB"), pushing the strongman up and back, and Xiaowang's structure down every time he pushes.

yes, it is a demonstration of structure along with several other things and I agree that what he demonstrated can be done by anyone and probably in a shorter amount of time than even what you gave, if they practiced and did the necessary conditioning, but I don't understand how what you're describing works in the way that you're describing it. How is this push into his upper chest/shoulders mechanically traveling around through his arms and back to the strongman. How does that work? You describe it as a mechanical process, but I don't see the mechanics. How is the force/push conveyed back to him?

I modified your image as I see it:



What I see is CXW simply relaxing and letting this man push him into the ground. He's providing no resistance and not letting any muscle tension block that force as it passes through him to the ground. CXW's center of gravity is effectively in his feet and his body is so well connected, it doesn't "give" as you or I would, so the push makes him heavier and can't throw off his base. The guy may as well be pushing down at an angle into his hip in an attempt to push him back, which is where the lack of traction and such comes from. IMO, it would be like you or I pushing down onto a big rock that's half buried in the ground rather than pushing at it from the side to move it. We're not going to move the rock by pushing it down into the ground, we're just going to make ourselves lighter and push ourselves away. He's also doing more behind the scenes in regards to force vectors and protecting his center and all that, but if we're that far apart on how we think he's doing what he's doing, there's no need to go there. On the surface everything he's doing is probably simpler than what even you were getting at, but more difficult at the same time. The hows are far more difficult than the whats.

I see no difference in what he's doing here than what I've seen of Ueshiba sitting, letting people push his head, or the jo trick or the pics of him pushing the tree. As Ikeda would say, "same, same". Do you agree or disagree?

HL1978 11-06-2012 07:53 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
20:20, and 23:30(where he is holding the guy back one handed) doesn't look anywhere like a locked arm to me. If he was to lock it from that position, you would see a twist in the bigger guy each time he pushed.

So, is CXW floating the big guy? Is he under the big guy? Is he actively pushing back, or passively letting the force bounce off the ground? Is the big guy mostly pushing or trying to rest his weight on CXW? What about CXW? If he is pushing back, where is he pushing back from? Is he resting his weight?

On a sidenote, CXW has relatively inexpensive seminars (though rather short, but fine if you just want to feel what its like) and is usually willing to toss anyone around. Unfortunately the seminar I went to, he did not, because people got upset the previous year. He did give plenty of corrections though, which sadly were not burned into my body.

danielajames 11-06-2012 07:55 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
My own view is that the structure of person A is being modified at the time of contact by person B so that A is unable to push in a horizontal direction towards person B. At this point person B feels there is no force being received and person A can be 'confused' about why they can't push. The base of person A (weak) and B(strong) at times reveal much, though with sufficient understanding they become ess relevant and you see in the video examples of that

As a somewhat mechanistic person i can see that using external structure and 'tricks' help to get the point across about where the forces go (via topple vector and understanding the base), but it also highlights for me the fundamental importance of internal structure (as the connecting point between infinite power of the ground and contact points). Then that everything can be made much smaller/ invisible where i think the science points the way to IP but maybe not how to get there if that makes sense.

*cringes slightly* but is hopeful.....

chillzATL 11-06-2012 08:22 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
I somehow missed the first part of the video, but they basically show you what he's doing at the beginning.

Rupert Atkinson 11-06-2012 08:48 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
I like Chris's diagram and it follows what I think. In the end it is just a trick, but a very good trick. Just like the unbendable arm. But what you really need to do is to figure out ways to put it all into your normal movement and into your techniques. And then, discover new tricks that lead to new ideas and new principles.

danielajames 11-06-2012 10:47 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 318570)
I like Chris's diagram and it follows what I think. In the end it is just a trick, but a very good trick. Just like the unbendable arm. But what you really need to do is to figure out ways to put it all into your normal movement and into your techniques. And then, discover new tricks that lead to new ideas and new principles.

Aiki-age?

ChrisHein 11-06-2012 11:04 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 318559)
if he can hit the guy, how is it that he can remove his hand if he needed it? as i said, not the arms.

Where is is other arm, the one that is away from the Camera?

ChrisHein 11-06-2012 11:12 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 318567)
20:20, and 23:30(where he is holding the guy back one handed) doesn't look anywhere like a locked arm to me. If he was to lock it from that position, you would see a twist in the bigger guy each time he pushed.

At 20:20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=20m20s his arm is still under the armpit of the strongman.)

At 23:30 still there as well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=23m30s)

You guys should be looking for the back arm, the one that is away from the camera. It is locked under the guys armpit. It never moves. If there is a video where this is not happening, I would love to see it.

ChrisHein 11-06-2012 11:19 PM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 318570)
I like Chris's diagram and it follows what I think. In the end it is just a trick, but a very good trick. Just like the unbendable arm. But what you really need to do is to figure out ways to put it all into your normal movement and into your techniques. And then, discover new tricks that lead to new ideas and new principles.

There is nothing wrong with this being what it is. You can call it a "trick" or a principle, or just plain clever. It is what it is, and that's how we should judge it, it's the only way to learn.

I've got nothing against "CXW" (if that's what people call him), but he's not using a magic force that takes a life time to master. It's a quickly learned technique that you might find useful, I've used it in Randori a few times.

Takeda Sokaku himself said that he didn't like people who didn't pay for his seminars watching, because his techniques were very simple and easy to steal. Probably why a lot of current "IP" guys now won't make video's or keep their video's secretly, so only a few can see them. Most of these techniques are simple, and easy to learn if you get a teacher willing to show them to you.

Lorel Latorilla 11-07-2012 01:07 AM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318575)
There is nothing wrong with this being what it is. You can call it a "trick" or a principle, or just plain clever. It is what it is, and that's how we should judge it, it's the only way to learn.

I've got nothing against "CXW" (if that's what people call him), but he's not using a magic force that takes a life time to master. It's a quickly learned technique that you might find useful, I've used it in Randori a few times.

Takeda Sokaku himself said that he didn't like people who didn't pay for his seminars watching, because his techniques were very simple and easy to steal. Probably why a lot of current "IP" guys now won't make video's or keep their video's secretly, so only a few can see them. Most of these techniques are simple, and easy to learn if you get a teacher willing to show them to you.

Chris, why would you want to discuss IP if this is ultimately what you want to express? On one side, some people say it takes a long time to burn it int these principles in movement (hence it takes a life time to master) and on your side, you say it doesnt take a life time to learn and that it is easy and simple. If you are so convinced that it is easy and simple and it doesnt take a life time to learn, why are you starting a thread trying to get people to discuss internal power? Are you purposely baiting and trolling and annoying people or something? Seriously, I don't get it.

jss 11-07-2012 01:15 AM

Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 318554)
What is being shown in this video, all be it very well, is a simple demonstration of structure. <snip>

When the strong man pushes into Chen Xiaowang, Chen locks his arm under strongman's arm pit, joining their structures. Every time the strongman pushes he is actually pushing against himself via a very simple redirection done by Chen Xiaowang.

<snip>

As I said earlier, the fact that you know a way with which you can reproduce the demonstration(*) does not mean that CXW does it that way. So here's an additional challenge to support your case: explain how CXW's explanation of what he is doing (You'll have to find it first, though, if I had a link or something I would provide it.) matches your explanation of what he is doing. I realize that this is a somewhat tricky endavour, but assuming we have two explanations of the same physical 'trick', it should be able to 'translate' one to the other in a meaningful way.

(*) Or think you can reproduce it. It may be possible that your way of doing it suffices in most cases, but not in cases in which the difference in size and muscle is as big as in CXW's demonstration. But let's not go there, because that's a discussion that won't go anywhere meaningful.


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