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-   -   Aikido vs non-committed attacks? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21915)

jbarros 10-29-2012 05:06 PM

Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Hi everyone,

I'm sorry if this is a total newb question. I know my experience is limited, and was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction.

Every technique I have ever seen, and every movement I have ever seen, seems to be against a very committed attack. They rely on the uke putting their body and their momentum into the thing.

Yet most of the fighting I've seen has very little of that, and much more jabby movement, snap kicks, and as a general rule, people who do not commit their body to attacks. These type of things seem like they would be immune to most of the small joint manipulations that make up the bulk of the Aikido I know, (although I'm sure an experienced aikidoka could enter through them)

I understand that a committed attack may be much easier, and the only appropriate training at my level, but I am just looking towards gaining a greater understanding of the art as a whole, and working with a mind towards where I will be developing.

Thank you.

-- James

ChrisHein 10-29-2012 05:41 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Hey James,
Great question, and one that I've spent hours with myself! Quick disclaimer, I'm going to use the word Aiki here, there are many different understandings of this word, but I'm using it as I was taught by my teacher, and I believe his teacher before him.

The great thing about Aiki, is that it allows us to follow our attackers mind and movements. If you are using Aiki to interact with someone/thing, you are trying to find ways to match/understand their movement and intent. This is what allows ideal Aikido techniques to "use the attackers force against them". When a technique happens, onr that is due to direct use of Aiki it is because an attacker made a "miscue" and over committed in their attack. This miscue is what allows the Aikidoka to effortlessly project or control the attacker. This is why in Aikido practice it is important for uke to fully commit to an attack, because we are training to use our techniques in these situations.

Outside of the Dojo, or in sparring sessions inside of the Dojo, attackers will try hard not to over commit. If we are being "Aiki" with this situation, we will simply move to the advantageous position and await a miscue, or for the attack to stop. There is no "need" to use a technique on an attacker, we can let his own miscalculations spell his demise. As long as we can keep ourselves in the superior position, we are in no danger.

This is all very easy to say, but is difficult to do. Short answer, if you can blend with your partner, you can stay in a superior position, if the attacker makes an over committed attack in order to get to your position, technique will become available. Until that over committed attack comes, we try and keep ourselves in the superior position.

Anyways, these are my views, I hope you explore the question and get a satisfying answer of your own! Take care.

jbarros 10-29-2012 06:13 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. Further, it seems to match with much of Sun Tzu's teachings on what is profitable in war, and what is not. It also explains why so much of the training I've done so far seems to be much more psychological than physical, in that every time I uke for one of my more skilled sempai, it is as if I find myself overcommitted even when I did not intend to be.

Thanks for the great answer. It still amazes me how enlightening this entire study is. =)

-- James

odudog 10-29-2012 07:18 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
What Chris wrote was pretty good. I'll have to add that to my mindset and play with it.. My instructor taught that the committed attack was the knock out blow. That is the one to be most worried about. The jabs hurt, but won't due much damage. It is also not easy to control the committed attack. Trying to connect then blend is not easy while staying, centered, and in balance.

Dalaran1991 11-09-2012 08:37 AM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Hi OP! I had a very similar problem to you in the "Aikido vs Sparring" thread. I tried what Chris wrote today and it works very well. Keep your distance, use taisabaki to out-maneuver your opponent and wait for them to throw a committed attack. Usually this will piss them off a bit (since they can't hit you) they will soon be tempted to deliver a haymaker/long hook and that's when you go in. If not, give them some more incentive with some shomenuchi strikes. A lot of non-aikido folks get confused by such an attack.

My concern is however in a "real life" situation, like in bar and club where stuff happens, you don't have room to move and if a jab comes out quickly, you need to be ready for it.

ChrisHein 11-09-2012 12:16 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
One of the great things about the practice of Aikido over "sport martial art systems" is that it makes attempts to train things like awareness, outside of "normal fighting conditions". Hopefully, if you're training well, you will be aware of the dangerous "bar" situation, before it gets out of hand, and avoid the jab well before he even thinks about throwing it. All good in theory and hard in real life, I've been caught myself in very similar situations; but that is our goal.

Aikido training is so much more then most of us allow for. It really is a great system! Good luck, and best to you in your training!

Pat Togher 11-09-2012 05:07 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 318131)
What Chris wrote was pretty good. I'll have to add that to my mindset and play with it.. My instructor taught that the committed attack was the knock out blow. That is the one to be most worried about. The jabs hurt, but won't due much damage. It is also not easy to control the committed attack. Trying to connect then blend is not easy while staying, centered, and in balance.

When I was in college, I boxed for a little while at a golden gloves club run by a guy named Bob Beal, former amatuer heavyweight. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Brutus_Beal
Bob told us that nearly all his wins were by ko, and only a few of the kos were not from jabs. You honestly could not hold onto the focus mitt for this guy - it would just get ripped right off your hand. So, and not that everyone can deliver one, but a jab may be a knockout blow, for someone who knows how to throw one. Just some grist for the mill.

REading the wiki article, I had no idea Bob knew Fred Degerberg, another guy I trained with very briefly. I believe I still have a "Bushido Fighting Society" t-shirt with the logo from the last photo.

Pat

Demetrio Cereijo 11-10-2012 03:16 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Quote:

James Barros wrote: (Post 318123)
Every technique I have ever seen, and every movement I have ever seen, seems to be against a very committed attack. They rely on the uke putting their body and their momentum into the thing.

Yet most of the fighting I've seen has very little of that, and much more jabby movement, snap kicks, and as a general rule, people who do not commit their body to attacks. These type of things seem like they would be immune to most of the small joint manipulations that make up the bulk of the Aikido I know, (although I'm sure an experienced aikidoka could enter through them)

But you have not seen how untrained unarmed people fought in old time Japan.

jbarros 11-11-2012 06:32 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 318808)
But you have not seen how untrained unarmed people fought in old time Japan.

This is true, but I don't generally spend time with untrained unarmed people in old time Japan ; )

And besides, O'Sensei's day wasn't THAT long ago.

Demetrio Cereijo 11-11-2012 07:11 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Quote:

James Barros wrote: (Post 318877)
This is true, but I don't generally spend time with untrained unarmed people in old time Japan ; )

And besides, O'Sensei's day wasn't THAT long ago.

Boxing was a novelty in mainland Japan in the 20's, Karate too. Aikido is based in "classical" jiu-jitsu techniques, tactics, principles and body skills that didn't adressed these new (for them) ways of figting.

Japanese unarmed arts, for the most part, were based on much grappling and little striking. Aikido follows this cultural pattern.

ChrisHein 11-11-2012 07:53 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 318881)
Boxing was a novelty in mainland Japan in the 20's, Karate too. Aikido is based in "classical" jiu-jitsu techniques, tactics, principles and body skills that didn't adressed these new (for them) ways of figting.

Japanese unarmed arts, for the most part, were based on much grappling and little striking. Aikido follows this cultural pattern.

It sounds so simple when you say it! (where is the "Like" button?)

Dalaran1991 11-14-2012 11:19 PM

Re: Aikido vs non-committed attacks?
 
Well, I believe none of us seriously learned Aikido purely for "self-defense". In our days the best thing for self-defense is a smart mind first and a gun second. Considering that, then Aikido really is one of the best art to learn for self-defense, because it teaches you environmental and situational awareness.

Is any Aikidoka crazy enough to go hand-in-hand with a trained boxer? I hope not unless again, you have a gun. But Aikido does train you to recognize the danger of the situation to back away before it's too late or possibly escape. That's something I value. I won't be standing there arguing with a guy who look like he's gonna freak out any time.

My Sensei used to tell us, if you are really really good at Aikido then you will never truly have to use it, because you will simply not be there when the fight happens. Unless you are Japanese riot police, but that's another story ;)


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