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-   -   Is ude furi chouyaku undo useful for kokyunage? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21913)

SparkErosion 10-28-2012 01:24 AM

Is ude furi chouyaku undo useful for kokyunage?
 
I've been doing Aikido for about 6 months and recently suffered a seperated shoulder injury from an ukemi accident. My ukemi (besides break falls ) I've been told is good and my forward rolls are silent. It was an accident in lapse of attention, conditioning (not expecting to roll forward, we were doing kokyunage that didn't require a forward roll, before that one...) , I've had this happen before, but I reacted in time. As soon I realized I was going down fast, and that I was going to have to roll out of it, I instinctively put out my left arm to roll, but it was too late; the force went up my arm, shoulder, to my collar bone as I basically landed vertically, heard It crack/pop , and seperated my a/c joint. In less than 3 weeks, only about 2, it's gone from taking 6 Vicodin a day (which didnt help with the pain, barely) to none, in a sling in constant severe pain, to no sling and free mobility of my whole left shoulder, arm, hand , side, etc. upward movements rarely cause pain anymore, (like removing a tshirt), but pushing, and ESPECIALLY pulling movements , and when it's something heavy, a lot of pain. I went foolishly back to my aikido class last Friday, as I was asked as usual to help with putting down the padded mats, I realized quickly I could not only not pick them up, but even pulling together with both hands hurt a lot. So, not doing ukemi for awhile. Anyway, something I have been able to do are things like fudegoshi, (sp?), and ude furi choyaku undo, a blending Excersise that seems to , I've heard, help a lot with kokyunage defense in me doing the projections. Since I've learned it I haven't been doing aikido, just the blending Excersise for hours over and over, trying to stay as centered as possible, and trying to lead with the hips. From my understanding, this can be applied to kokyunage, maybe like this?: Nage delivers a yokomenuchi strike to the left side of the head, my left foot is forward, I step with rear foot forward, extending their arm out, then pivoting (spinning my center), then stepping back and reversing the arm over the shoulder after/as I pivot and, and then lower my center to help with the projection. Can this blending Excersise help with kokyunage like this? Thanks. Kevin.

Malicat 10-28-2012 11:53 AM

Re: Is ude furi chouyaku udo useful for kokyunage?
 
Quote:

Kevin Tejan wrote: (Post 318021)
Anyway, something I have been able to do are things like fudegoshi, (sp?), and ude furi choyaku undo, a blending Excersise that seems to , I've heard, help a lot with kokyunage defense in me doing the projections. Since I've learned it I haven't been doing aikido, just the blending Excersise for hours over and over, trying to stay as centered as possible, and trying to lead with the hips. From my understanding, this can be applied to kokyunage, maybe like this?: Nage delivers a yokomenuchi strike to the left side of the head, my left foot is forward, I step with rear foot forward, extending their arm out, then pivoting (spinning my center), then stepping back and reversing the arm over the shoulder after/as I pivot and, and then lower my center to help with the projection. Can this blending Excersise help with kokyunage like this? Thanks. Kevin.

Kevin, I'm not sure the style of Aikido you are doing, but it sounds like you are at least incorporating Tohei Sensei's Aiki Taiso exercises. We always do all of the taisos as part of our warm up at the beginning of our classes. The step you are referring to shows up in a lot of the taisos, not just ude furi. That particular step and hip movement is absolutely critical for almost all of the tenkan techniques I have done, not just kokyu nage. The best part is that these are all Aikido movements that you can practice when you are alone. As far as your specific question, it is my experience that working on mastering these particular movements will go very far in helping you with all of your Aikido. I often see beginners "stutter step" through a technique, which inevitably stands uke back up. I know that once I was able to start the more flowing and proper steps, I was also able to keep uke stretched out and not give balance back.

--Ashley

SparkErosion 10-28-2012 01:09 PM

Re: Is ude furi chouyaku udo useful for kokyunage?
 
When I do this blending excercise, should I just rotate (pivot my body, center, or hara) for the energy, and when I move (step forward, backwards) should I start with and lead with the hip then body, kind of like surging with the hips forward and back like with the rowing excercise ? Thanks

SparkErosion 10-28-2012 04:06 PM

Re: Is ude furi chouyaku udo useful for kokyunage?
 
Thanks very much for your reply Ashley, very useful and helpful. I appreciate it. My apologies for not thanking you in my previous post. Best, Kevin.

Diana Frese 10-28-2012 04:26 PM

Re: Is ude furi chouyaku udo useful for kokyunage?
 
Yes, udefuri choyaku undo was taught to us by Koichi Tohei Sensei when he visited New York Aikikai decades ago. I found it very useful to practice solo at home and I used it from time to time when I taught at a local Y back in my home town. We were lucky to have a two hour class, so after some basic loosening and stretching exercises we had, from various teachers and seminars I had attended several solo practices for basic Aikido movements. I would tell people it's a good idea to do these to practice keeping your own balance each class before dealing with another person:) Within the two hours, we had plenty of time to do the regular partner techniques, plus some jiyu waza usually using whatever techniques had been taught that evening.

So, Kevin, good luck and whatever your dojo recommends for solo exercises, and thanks Ashley for your excellent explanation:)

SparkErosion 10-29-2012 11:31 AM

Re: Is ude furi chouyaku udo useful for kokyunage?
 
Guys, if you don't mind, am I right on my description of how to do the kokyunage with regards to ude furi choyaku undo? Should I use a hip surge forward and back (from power from center) right before I step forward and back to further unbalanced the nage? Thanks again much! Kevin

Diana Frese 11-03-2012 10:27 AM

Re: Is ude furi chouyaku undo useful for kokyunage?
 
Hi Kevin,

Sorry I wasn't able to answer sooner, but we are dealing with some hurricane stuff. Really sorry about those in the tri state area and mid atlantic etc that have flooding , higher areas with tree falling on utility wires etc.

I will ask my hubby to help work on the technique you described as soon as we can. I was writing about a shomen uchi technique I used to teach that used some of the principles from ude furi choyaku undo, but it got too complicated and I ran out of revision time so I deleted it.

So I will try again soon, hoping some of it will be helpful.

Keep working on it and good luck with your recovery:) Maybe someone else will see this thread again and be able to help with the yokomen uchi version.

Diana Frese 11-08-2012 09:11 AM

Re: Is ude furi chouyaku undo useful for kokyunage?
 
Hi again, we are still dealing with storm issues. We have power but haven't activated the heating system except for a space heater which isn't in this room!

Still thinking about your question. In trying to adapt what I remember to the yokomen uchi attack, I find that I used to step to the side slightly with my left foot, then if uke was striking yokomen to my forward side of the head, my right foot forward originally, I would step back with that right foot as in the version of ude furi choyaku undo that I remember, allowing the arms to arc down after the upward part acted as a suggestion of atemi to keep uke a bit off balance. Then we could either continue the forward circular movement of uke, or step behind and change his or her direction once the attack lost power on the downswing. This is hard to describe in words, but I am trying to visualize it, because the ude furi choyaku undo does indeed use the principles of keeping the arms relaxed so their weight rather than pulling, leads the uke down and dissipates the power of his or her attack.

The focus on keeping weight or focus in the hips is essential for stability while standing or moving so even just the exercise itself in its simplest form can be excellent for our training, whether or not I was able to properly explain each step! Hopefully your teachers and training partners can help you with the exact steps and turns. But be careful about swinging those arms, you need to heal your shoulder in the interest of your future practice, since you seem very dedicated, which is admirable.

Take care, and I am still hoping Ashley and others will write further posts for you.


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