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-   -   Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21822)

maxham 10-04-2012 11:32 PM

Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
We, Aikidoka, must respect Takeda Sokaku and Daito-ryu as the precursor of O'sensei and Aikido. It is no public secret anymore that should O'sensei didn't learn Daito-ryu from Sokaku, we could never find Aikido as we practice today. Sokaku is the disseminator and at the time, indeed, he had the highest Aiki ability.

We Aikidoka annd Daito-ryu practitioners all give credit to Takeda Sokaku as the disseminator of Daito-ryu. That's not wrong at all, it's a fact instead. But do we ever realize who's the real man behind the dissemination of Daito-ryu to the general public?

Now, I should say that we must give credits to Tanomo Saigo, who was the last Lord Retainer of the Aizu-han and teacher of Sokaku himself. It is Tanomo, who directed Sokaku to disseminate Daito-ryu to the general public. It is comprehensible that Tanomo didn't teach like Sokaku did, as we could know, that at the time Tanomo advised Sokaku in around 1898-1900, Tanomo had already reached near the end of his life, while Sokaku was still relatively young. Should Tanomo didn't direct Sokaku to disseminate the art, Daito-ryu could still remains a secret martial art!

Now, if talking about Asayama Ichiden-ryu, lots of Daito-ryu practitioners will raise their eyebrow if they listen to the rumor of "Asayama Ichiden-ryu is the sister art of Daito-ryu". But let's face this thing: both Tokimune and Takeda Sokaku used Asayama Ichiden-ryu as the basis/model to devise the Daito-ryu syllabus and waza we learn, so I think it'll be never wrong to say that Asayama Ichiden-ryu is one of the ancestor of Daito-ryu!

Ellis Amdur 10-05-2012 02:54 AM

Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
Maxwell - I've read that assertion before, but I've never seen any documentary evidence. What proof do you have of any connection between Daito-ryu and Asayama Ichiden-ryu?
1. Are there any proven connections regarding waza?
2. Are there any proven connections regarding the construction of the curriculum (ie., Daito-ryu mokuroku constructed in the same pattern or using the same waza names?)
3. Who (Sokaku or Tokimune) actually did this? Did either one of the men simply take an Asayama Ichiden-ryu mokuroku and copy it's "design?" Or did one or the other man consult with Asayama Ichiden-ryu practitioners?

NOTE: all the assertions I've read about this connection have to do with the construction of the mokuroku, or copying of technique names or methods. I've never read or heard of any connection asserted re internal training, so, unless such an assertion is made, for the love of all that's holy under the heavens, can we not go sideways into the "Aikiwars?"

Ellis Amdur

oisin bourke 10-05-2012 10:42 AM

Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
I"ve seen Asayama Ichiden Ryu a lot in Japan at yearly embu; Some techniques familiar (arms length grappling, but the kuzushi throws and stances didn't strike me as having any commonality.
I'd be more intrigued with sekiguchi ryu, which Serge Mol lists as the forrunner of both Shibukawa Ryu and Daito Ryu. I wonder why he listed that as such? His description of Yagyu Shingan Ryu also chimes with the history of DR in that there were different levels of jujutsu taught to different ranks of citizens, so nthere may be some commonality there. Gyoi dori in YSR sounds similar to oshikiuchi to me.

Cliff Judge 10-05-2012 11:43 AM

Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote: (Post 316659)
We, Aikidoka, must respect Takeda Sokaku and Daito-ryu as the precursor of O'sensei and Aikido. It is no public secret anymore that should O'sensei didn't learn Daito-ryu from Sokaku, we could never find Aikido as we practice today. Sokaku is the disseminator and at the time, indeed, he had the highest Aiki ability.

We Aikidoka annd Daito-ryu practitioners all give credit to Takeda Sokaku as the disseminator of Daito-ryu. That's not wrong at all, it's a fact instead. But do we ever realize who's the real man behind the dissemination of Daito-ryu to the general public?

Now, I should say that we must give credits to Tanomo Saigo, who was the last Lord Retainer of the Aizu-han and teacher of Sokaku himself. It is Tanomo, who directed Sokaku to disseminate Daito-ryu to the general public. It is comprehensible that Tanomo didn't teach like Sokaku did, as we could know, that at the time Tanomo advised Sokaku in around 1898-1900, Tanomo had already reached near the end of his life, while Sokaku was still relatively young. Should Tanomo didn't direct Sokaku to disseminate the art, Daito-ryu could still remains a secret martial art!

Now, if talking about Asayama Ichiden-ryu, lots of Daito-ryu practitioners will raise their eyebrow if they listen to the rumor of "Asayama Ichiden-ryu is the sister art of Daito-ryu". But let's face this thing: both Tokimune and Takeda Sokaku used Asayama Ichiden-ryu as the basis/model to devise the Daito-ryu syllabus and waza we learn, so I think it'll be never wrong to say that Asayama Ichiden-ryu is one of the ancestor of Daito-ryu!

Maxwell, I can tell that English is not your first language and that's okay, it should not disqualify you from joining the discussion here.

It seems like you are saying that Asayama Ichiden ryu is the predecessor to Daito ryu. That's an interesting thought, but for this conversation to continue we'd really need you to tell us why you think this.

Do you practice Daito ryu and Asayama Ichiden ryu? Then you could share your thoughts on how the techniques, principals, training methodology, or kata are similar. Do you have documentation to support your claim? Do you have youtube videos to discuss? Is it simply that you have seen demonstrations of both arts and found them similar?

Any of these would be a fine way to kick off a thread. But you have to back up your assertions with...SOMETHING. :crazy:

maxham 10-05-2012 07:58 PM

Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
Quote:

It seems like you are saying that Asayama Ichiden ryu is the predecessor to Daito ryu. That's an interesting thought, but for this conversation to continue we'd really need you to tell us why you think this.

Do you practice Daito ryu and Asayama Ichiden ryu? Then you could share your thoughts on how the techniques, principals, training methodology, or kata are similar. Do you have documentation to support your claim? Do you have youtube videos to discuss? Is it simply that you have seen demonstrations of both arts and found them similar?
Quote:

Maxwell - I've read that assertion before, but I've never seen any documentary evidence. What proof do you have of any connection between Daito-ryu and Asayama Ichiden-ryu?
1. Are there any proven connections regarding waza?
2. Are there any proven connections regarding the construction of the curriculum (ie., Daito-ryu mokuroku constructed in the same pattern or using the same waza names?)
3. Who (Sokaku or Tokimune) actually did this? Did either one of the men simply take an Asayama Ichiden-ryu mokuroku and copy it's "design?" Or did one or the other man consult with Asayama Ichiden-ryu practitioners?

NOTE: all the assertions I've read about this connection have to do with the construction of the mokuroku, or copying of technique names or methods. I've never read or heard of any connection asserted re internal training, so, unless such an assertion is made, for the love of all that's holy under the heavens, can we not go sideways into the "Aikiwars?"

Ellis Amdur
OK guys, before we proceed, I personally haven't practice AIR & DTR family. But I do make friends with some people that practice both (and even become the instructor of AIR & Hakko-ryu). And it's from their stories that I heard the connections.

But here's the thing: We do know that DTR and lots of other koryu bujutsu, if regarding history, often times are very confusing because the lack of documented evidence. That's why oral tradition is important. Despite, if there's a written evidence, that'd be much better. And sorry, not to mean offensive or what, but I still personally believes that oral history still remains the most powerful source of information, especially given the high secrecy, in solving mysteries of bujutsu. Written evidence could still be manipulated, but despite words can also be manipulated, the essence still could be the same. Evidence is important, but we know that still must be based on common sense, right?...

Anyway, the best evidence I could show you is on YouTube.
For DTR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrQtdoUvSTQ
(this is from Takumakai)
For AIR: http://www.youtube.com/user/syousui?feature=watch
(contains several instruction videos about AIR)

Man, I'm, just standing in the "civis pacem para bellum" principle guys. I basically also don;t want to instigate some "Aikiwars", but if someone nudged on us, you know just doing nothing is not an option...

Hope that help my explanation & stance.

Maxwell

Tengu859 10-05-2012 09:20 PM

Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
Hey Max,

So what does the AIR and the DTR(Takumakai) have in common? I think you will need to explain yourself a bit more than just posting links...I'm still not sure why you think so. :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW

maxham 10-06-2012 02:07 AM

Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
Quote:

Chris Western wrote: (Post 316685)
Hey Max,

So what does the AIR and the DTR(Takumakai) have in common? I think you will need to explain yourself a bit more than just posting links...I'm still not sure why you think so. :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW

Chris, if I read Sagawa's "Tomei na Chikara", if I'm not mistaken, there's a part that says Takeda Sokaku Dai-sensei learned martial arts from Saigo Tanomo. Some people said Saigo's the adviser, but hey, that time, "advisor" is really your tutor, right?

Also the story that says AIR is a fellow koryu from Aizu area, where Takeda Dai-sensei came from, by using common sense, isn't that obvious that Takeda Sokaku Dai-sensei also learnt that skill, especially since he's from a samurai family.

BTW, I also heard the story from a thred in e-budo.com: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9668.

It's just oral history + common sense, my friend ;)

Cheers,

Maxwell

Tengu859 10-06-2012 07:57 AM

Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote: (Post 316688)
Chris, if I read Sagawa's "Tomei na Chikara", if I'm not mistaken, there's a part that says Takeda Sokaku Dai-sensei learned martial arts from Saigo Tanomo. Some people said Saigo's the adviser, but hey, that time, "advisor" is really your tutor, right?

Also the story that says AIR is a fellow koryu from Aizu area, where Takeda Dai-sensei came from, by using common sense, isn't that obvious that Takeda Sokaku Dai-sensei also learnt that skill, especially since he's from a samurai family.

BTW, I also heard the story from a thred in e-budo.com: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9668.

It's just oral history + common sense, my friend ;)

Cheers,

Maxwell

.

Max,

Thank you very much. Now I understand. It's all common sense...!!!

Take Care and Enjoy,

ChrisW

Ellis Amdur 10-06-2012 10:50 AM

Against My Better Judgement
 
Maxwell - it's not common sense. It's closer to nonsense. The problem is you have no historical grounding. To say that if a ryu was in Aizu so Takeda must have studied it displays a lack of knowledge of how ryu were taught. For one thing, there were otome-ryu. There were machi-dojo. There were ryu associated with bushi, others with goshi and still others with commoners.

I cannot recall the number, but Aizu-han had a number of ryu. It may have been over 100. Asayama Ichiden-ryu was considered a plebian ryu, associated with low-class individuals (goshi) rather than bushi, so that doesn't fly. Tanomo, in particular, if he did ANY martial art, which is considerably in doubt, would no more likely have done Asayama Ichiden-ryu than the Swiss Guard would start doing capoiera.

I trained in Tokyo almost as long a period as Takeda trained in Aizu. There was Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, Itto-ryu, Chokugen-ryu, Tendo-ryu, Tenshin Shinyo-ryu, just to name a few, all within bicycle distance of my house. It's common sense that I studied each of them?????

I looked at the thread - and lets consider the source - Ueno Takashi's associates have maybe a <little> more creditability than the Bujinkan, but barely - they are part of the same circle. The writer didn't even have the name family of Takeda's grandfather correct - Kurokichi Dengoro. And he wasn't aware of the rather extensive documentation on the arts he actually studied.

Now, a rather well-known author wrote a book called Hidden in Plain Sight, which wrote, in some detail about Kurokichi - and the actual martial arts he is ON RECORD as having learned. Asayama Ichiden-ryu is not one of them. That well-known author also went through the martial arts that Takeda is known to have studied - and there is no mention whatsoever of Asayama Ichiden-ryu.

Back to that thread - a number of people with connections with Daito-ryu, consider the possibility of a connection, and the best they come up with is some speculation that AI-ryu was used as a template for the mokuroku - this has nothing to do with the waza. In other words, MAYBE since Daito-ryu techniques were taught haphazard, the Takeda's organized all the waza according to a pattern already laid down. Nathan Scott, who has read both mokuroku, goes at some length to establish that, even on a template level, the organization is NOT similar.

In short, there is no evidence. And oral tradition has to be more than "some guy said." It doesn't conform to any known history, to the social structure of Aizu, and to the actual organization of the mokuroku.

Ellis Amdur (If you want some real history, I might suggest purchasing that well-known authors book)

Demetrio Cereijo 10-07-2012 06:25 AM

Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote: (Post 316684)
...
Man, I'm, just standing in the "civis pacem para bellum" principle guys.

The adage is si vis pacem para bellum. Civis means citizen.

Chris Li 10-08-2012 05:01 PM

Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots
 
Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote: (Post 316688)
Chris, if I read Sagawa's "Tomei na Chikara", if I'm not mistaken, there's a part that says Takeda Sokaku Dai-sensei learned martial arts from Saigo Tanomo. Some people said Saigo's the adviser, but hey, that time, "advisor" is really your tutor, right?

You should also note that Sagawa was extremely skeptical about any real connection between Saigo Tanomo and Sokaku Takeda in terms of martial transmission.

Best,

Chris

Thomas Campbell 10-15-2012 11:33 AM

Re: Against My Better Judgement
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 316695)
the Swiss Guard would start doing capoiera.

That inspires a rather vivid image . . . . especially with the pikes.





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